Creating a successful group programme with Gemma Gilbert

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This is a podcast for fearless female founders who want strategies, inspiration and practical marketing advice on building and sustaining a mighty audience of dream clients. 

What’s this episode about?

I love recording episodes with people I have worked with and if you've listened to episode 1, you'll know that working with Gemma has had a big impact on my business over the last year.

Gemma is an expert in helping service providers create world class group programmes and enrol into them month on month (aka 'evergreen) so they can scale their business, without burning out.

In this episode I cover:

In this episode I really wanted to explore the key elements moving from working with clients 1:1 to creating a successful evergreen group programme.

We cover:

• Is a group programme right for you?

• The number 1 thing you need to do if you want to successfully grow a group programme

• Gemma's experience of using Ads to grow her business, including her Ad costs for an online event where she made £50k

• The impact my group programme, Bloom, has had on my business as well as why I'm pausing it.

This episode is for you if you have been pondering whether you should be starting a group programme, have already got one and are struggling to get clients signed up or get them the results you know are possible or even if you have a lower priced membership or currently run a launch model and are struggling with the burnout of endless launches!

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INTRODUCING… gemma gilbert

Gemma is an expert in helping service-providers transition from a fully-booked 1-1 service into a group programme they can enrol into month on month without launching.

As a former teacher, Gemma geeks out on curriculum design and helps her clients design world-class learner experiences so they can get results, without all the 1-1 time.

With her strong background in email marketing and sales without launching, Gemma’s approach to marketing is relationship-focussed so you can make money without any of the manipulative ‘buy now’ pressure.

If you want to find out more about Gemma, the best place is:

In her Facebook group: Gemma Gilbert’s Scaling With Group Programmes (prev. Mummy's Got Clients)

Or download her free guide: How To Fill Your High-Ticket Group Programme Without Launching

If you enjoyed the podcast, here are some ways you can be a part of my world:

Social:

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Free Resource:

Ready to grow an audience of people who WANT you to sell to them? Radical idea I know, but it shouldn’t be! Click here to get access to my step by step guide to using simple, effective ads to build & nurture a community of superfans,

Work together:

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Email me here: hello@sophiegriffiths.co

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Read the transcript:

NOTE: This podcast was transcribed by an AI tool. Please forgive any typos or errors. LHM: 002 Gemma Gilbert === [00:00:00] hello, and welcome to Lion Hearted Marketing. This is a podcast for bold businesses who are ready to go from a slightly scattergun marketing approach to connecting everything they're doing to create joyful, repeatable customer journeys, that build connection and consistently convert new clients. That's called a funnel. If you fancy. If you have that nagging feeling, you should have more of a grasp on your marketing, more of a plan, more of a system to support your pretty successful business. You're in the right place. This isn't about trying lows and new strategies. It's about taking what you've got and making the most of it. I'm Sophie your host. Self-confessed tea superfan marketing strategist and funnels or joyful journeys, as I like to call them, demystifier. Join me every Tuesday for my Lion hearted approach to marketing. To help you navigate those big moves, stay focused on your goals and ultimately take your business to the next level. Let's jump in to today's episode. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: Hello and welcome to the Lion Hearted Marketing podcast [00:01:00] Today I'm here with my guest, Gemma Gilbert. Gemma is an expert in helping service providers transition from fully booked one-to-one service into a group program they can enroll into month on month without launching. As a former teacher, Gemma geeks out on curriculum design and helps our clients design, world-class learner experiences so they can get results without all the one-to-one time. With a strong background in email marketing and sales without launching Gemma's approach to marketing is a relationship focused so you can make money without any of the manipulative buy now pressure. So welcome GE to the podcast. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: Thanks so much for having me. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: am very excited you are here. Now, if listeners, if you have been on my email list have followed me on Instagram for a while, or have listened to the last episode of the podcast, you probably already know that I worked with Gemma last year in Amplify program. It helped me massively going from working with clients, managing their ads for them to launching a really successful group program Bloom. And since graduating her course, I'm also her ads coach in [00:02:00] Amplify now. And I'm on her mastermind. So it's fair to say I'm a pretty big fan. And whilst this isn't gonna be solely a promo episode for Gemma, I know lots of you will wonder about working with a coach and particularly being part of a group program that, you know, isn't an insignificant investment. And I get lots of dms whenever I talk about working with coaches because it probably feels like quite a big leap. So we're gonna talk a little bit about that today as well. So in this episode, what I really want to explore is key elements in moving from working with clients one-to-one, to creating a successful evergreen group program. Whether it's right for you, what you need to have in place, what the key elements are for it being successful and really, I guess, what success actually looks like as well. We are gonna talk about Gemma's experience of using ads as well to grow her business, how her clients use ads. And I'm gonna talk a little bit about my experience of setting up and running Bloom, and also my decision to pause it as well in the context of what success gonna looks like. This episode is for you if you have [00:03:00] been pondering whether you should be starting a group program, if you've already got one by struggling to get clients signed up or get them results. Or even if you've got a low price membership and are currently running a launch model, but are really struggling with those endless burnout launches. So, Let's jump into it. I've already talked about launch Strategy versus Evergreen, but can we just talk for a second about what we actually mean by those terms? Like, let's just make sure we're talking about the same thing. Gemma, how do you explain the difference between the two? 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: Yeah, so rather than launch strategy or evergreen, I'd probably say cohort style strategy or evergreen, cuz you can still launch into an evergreen model. So when group programs we, we have two main models I. One where all members start at the same time. They finish at the same time. They're on the same journey at the same time. It's got this start, stop, finish, and everyone does it together. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: Mm-hmm. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: Now, when you use that model, typically you have to launch into it because you need [00:04:00] lots of people to start at the same time. So you need this big marketing push to get people over the line before the start date. Evergreen means different things to different people, but to me it means where you have more of a, a rolling enrollment, you can enroll people either whenever, or what I teach is like more consistent monthly enrollment. You might have an intake every month or every other month but you basically have one core program which you keep adding to rather than everyone starting and finishing at the same time. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean that is how I ran Bloom as well with this like smaller cohort starting every other month. And I guess that's the thing, isn't it? It's really flexible and can work for what you need as well. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: Yeah, and like a lot of people, I'm not by the way ever rubbishing the cohort model, I think. For some people who really want to focus on lots of different projects and want to run like one-off things and then have a break or like test something, the cohort model can be really, really great. But when you are actually looking [00:05:00] to, to grow it, For me, it just makes no sense to have an offer that you can't enroll into all the time or as often as you want, cuz then you literally can't make any money from when it started until when it's finished and when you launch it again. So for me it's a much less buildable, scalable model. If you can't enroll clients anytime. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: Yeah, absolutely. And in terms of your typical clients, like when you're going on discovery calls, like what are people coming to you and saying, like, is it that they've already got courses and they're struggling to grow them and scale them like we were just talking about? Or is it more making that leap from the one-to-one into the group? 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: It's a really big mix. So I have these two ideal clients. One group is fully booked with one-on-one. They want to work less hours. They wanna shift to a group program. The other group has been running their group program in cohorts. They might be on their third or fourth cohort. And they're exhausted. They're exhausted of the launches. They're ex, they're. Frustrated. They can't enroll leads [00:06:00] anytime they're frustrated that they have these huge income highs and these income lows and they want something more sustainable. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: And I guess the, that switch from like, if you've already got a, got a course running and you are getting this burnout, I mean we, you and I have talked about this before where Often, especially as moms, we end up using school terms as a sort of benchmark of like, okay, so September, January and like April time I'll do a, I'll do a launch cuz then I can run the program during the term and then have the holidays off. And that was definitely what I was kind of initially thinking and I think that's what used to do. You used to run that in your, in some of your previous 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: Yeah, so for years, cuz it's quite a nice model in theory. So you have. You have six weeks between each half term, but you have 12 weeks between like the bigger holidays, so you can run a 12 week holiday, say from Christmas to Easter, have it nicely done and dusted, and then come back after Easter and run the next 12 week holiday. What you don't see when you run that model, Is in that you have to [00:07:00] launch and say, I would roll, enroll 12 to 15 people onto each group. So I'd be doing 20 to 25 sales schools, one hour sales goals that had to fit in somewhere. So I'd have two very intense weeks. A lot of sales schools start the next cohort. By that point, I'm exhausted. Then I start live delivering the program, and then you just keep doing it on repeat and you feel, I felt just trapped in launch, deliver, launch, deliver. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: I think what I find just from an ads perspective as well, having worked with a few people who have more of that launch model, there is such an intense pressure on that. On that launch period, like those two weeks, like booking those calls in converting those people, because you know that once that shuts, once that cart closes and we start the course, there's no opportunity to to go back. There's no, like, you've gotta get the ads, right? You've gotta get everything right And if it doesn't live up to expectations, that can be really, really hard. You've either gotta launch something else or you know that you weren't planning, or it can be really stressful, can't it? 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: A hundred percent. And then [00:08:00] what? What are your options? You either run the program with a couple of people in it. And then you have to do that for 12 weeks and you can't enroll anyone else, or you have to decide not to run it. So the intense pressure that a launch creates means that people go through this cycle of failed launches, feeling like, oh, I'm never gonna get this right. With the evergreen model and the way I teach it, I guess I approach it more like, Let's learn your messaging, like let's create the messaging, let's sell the spots, let's develop the messaging. Let's sell more spaces. So people, I have one client, start with one person on their program, and then five and then 10, and it grew from there. And that's just having a slower approach. It doesn't have to be slower. I have other clients that jump in and roll 10 people and then another five and another five and grow very quickly. But for me, it's just more realistic and it's a slower pace to marketing, which I think is less pressured and gives you more time to refine the offer. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: And I guess the flip side, and this is some conversations that I've had with people, is this feeling of with Evergreen, do [00:09:00] you have to feel like you are always selling? So I guess the plus side with the launch is that you are, you go into an intense selling period and then it's almost like, okay, now I can breathe and I can just focus on my clients. Whereas if you're running Evergreen, is there more of a pressure to always be selling? Every single month, cuz you've gotta bring people in every single month. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: Yeah, and I've definitely had clients say to me on Amplify, or I feel like I'm always selling. So I feel like it's a balance to get right to get the balance right. One, you want your automations to work really hard for you, so if you have ads running and you have a really strong welcome sequence and a really strong nurture sequence, and that lasts for say, six months, you should be getting leads all the time without you selling. Without you doing anything, once you've set it up. The other thing is when people say selling all the time, I like to kind of question them on what they actually mean. Because if we're inviting people to work with us, for me, that's the most natural thing in the world. Pretty much every single email I write, I naturally say, oh, by the way, if you want more information about this, [00:10:00] just reply back. So I would just differentiate between like subtle casual selling and then maybe having like a week, a month or a week, every two months, where we are more proactively saying, Hey, I've got five spots. Do you wanna come join? Like, here's the information. So we've got soft selling, hard selling, and I think it's the balance between those two things that we wanna get right. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: I do think, just from my own experience as well, moving from that one-to-one world into more of a group program, it does take some adapting to, because when you are in the one-to-one world, you just need far less clients generally and that's actually been a real Eye opener for me in terms of running bloom, the amount of people that I need to reach, be talking to, leads that I need to be tracking and keeping an eye on because the amount of people is just so much higher whereas with one-to-one, it can be quite easy to not feel like you have to sell very much cause you only need one or two clients. That, I guess it's, what am I trying to say? It's more about [00:11:00] reframing that selling. If you need a new client and you're on one-to-one, you can go into like a hard sort of selling kind of emails and on your socials and then you don't have to do it again or think about it for a while with group programs. You very much need, even if you're doing the launch model, really you need to be thinking about it all the time, bringing new people into your world, don't you? 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: A hundred percent. And we can talk about lead flow and obviously how that is the main thing that stops people growing. But I'd also say there's a mindset reframe here that happens with service providers, but not with product sellers. Right? Top shop, gonna random old school reference. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: Reference. I love it. Yeah. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: Top shop aren't just like, Hey guys, just checking in. How are you? They're like, here's our summer collection, here's our spring collection, here's the new jeans. Like they're selling every single email. When we come to services, all of a sudden we're like, oh, am I selling too much? Like there's this mindset if. If we are talking about scaling your business and at the same time you're going, I don't wanna sell too much for me, that's [00:12:00] incongruent with where you are saying you want to go. Selling is not a bad thing. It's in service. So yes, we need to find authentic ways to sell. Yes, we don't always want to feel like we're doing that hard direct invite because it's not, you know, it's, it's value based for the people that want it, but you know, it's not value based where people aren't at the right space. So I just guess I wanna normalize selling all the time. It's not a negative thing. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I guess in terms of if they're people listening, they're like, okay, I think. A group program sounds like somewhere I want to go with my business, I wanna scale, I wanna start, I haven't got enough time to take on any more clients, or I've got a group program and it is just not working for me. What really do you need in place before you can start thinking about a group program? 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: So, Well, firstly you need a validated offer that is selling. So going to Evergreen doesn't fix a cohort program that isn't selling right. If anything, it's harder to sell cuz you lose the urgency of the deadline. So you have to have a validated service. For [00:13:00] me, I like people to do that one-on-one. Like you need to be spotting patterns with clients. If you've turned it into a group program, that's probably where you've gone. You've been like, these clients are all struggling with the same thing. So I'm turn that into a pathway which people can follow. And I like people to have made at least 10 grand as, as just a random ballpark from their one-on-one service before they even think about turning that into a group program. They also want, so I mentioned the patterns. They should be able to think of three to five people that would be a good fit already. So maybe people that have said no based on price of your one-on-one service that they think, you know, actually this would be Cuz group is typically cheaper, but it doesn't have to be that they could think of that could jump straight in. And then with group, you're often gonna go more niche, but you don't need to figure that piece out like this second. But if you don't have a validated service, it's gonna be really hard to sell. And then the last piece is you have to have an audience. And I'm always amazed at how many people are like, so I've spent a [00:14:00] year developing a course. How do I sell it? 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: Yeah. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: Will you go grow an audience for the next two years and then come back to me? 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: Yeah, and I think this is a common thing as well, is I've got an audience, but I haven't grown it, is the other thing I've had the same audience for the last two years and they're so highly engaged and you know, you think I've got a small but perfectly formed audience, it's really engaged. I've got this email list of like 200 people and, and then you launch your group program and it goes really well and people sign up and you think, oh, this is amazing, and then you do it again. And again, and you just have totally exhausted that audience. And without that growth and the new people coming in, that can also be really hard as well. Carne, even with a bigger audience, if you're not growing it, you can't, you just can't keep bringing people in 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: yeah, a hundred percent. And I literally, I had the amplified kickoff call for the five new people earlier, and I've now added this to the kickoff call. It's like, I don't care how established your list is. I don't care if you have 10,000 people on there or 20,000 people on [00:15:00] there. It more matters if you have movement at the top of the funnel. But then the other thing you talked about, I did a post about once called the super fan false validation. When I launched Amplify, I had people jump in. They just loved me. Yeah, I'll pay you loads of money, I'll, I'll pay you anything. And I 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: I know that you're great. I know it'll be good. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: And because it was a new thing and I was excited and I let them all in, but loads of them didn't get results because they didn't have the right foundations in their business. So don't let your super fans. Tell you whether an idea is validated and profitable, like you have to properly validate it with your audience before turning into a group program. And then, like we said, movement at the top of the funnel means more than that. A thousand followers on Instagram that you've had for the last five years. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: Yeah, yeah, it's so easy to get into that false sense of security. I did a post the other day with some stories about every month since I've been an amplify, I look at my audience figures [00:16:00] and how many people. On Instagram and my email list as well. Before then, I just kind of always assumed it was ticking upwards. Like, yeah, , I'm getting more followers. Yeah, people are joining my list. But never really quantifying it, never having a goal, never really focusing on, okay, well I want to hit this number. And then halfway through the month being like, okay, well am I anywhere near it? What, do I need to up something? Do I need to change something? And I think that's really common, isn't it? Feeling like there's some sort of upward trend, but not actually quantifying it and making it a. Core goal of your business? 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: A hundred percent and I had that in 2021. So I got to the end of the year, I did my stats and I was like, Crap. My audience is shrunk. It's shrunk because obviously you've got unsubscribes. So I'm a big email marketer, but with my unsubscribes, like it hadn't, it hadn't grown. So since then, like lesson learned and now we've completely changed our ad strategy. So it's always growing. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: Yeah, absolutely. And then just in terms of thinking about a successful group program, I mean, we've talked a lot about [00:17:00] audience growth and we will talk more about the ads specifically in a sec, but I just wanna talk about. How else can people set, you know, if you're thinking about a group program, what else do you really need to set yourself up for success? Is it all in the way the course is designed? Is it about the right people coming in, while you are building, do you build it while you do it or build it beforehand? Like how can you set yourself up for success? 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: Cool. So first step is niche, and when you shift a group, you have to go more niche. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: Mm-hmm. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: Because you're gonna go to a subset of your one-on-one clients and you need to pick those that have a bleeding neck problem. And that means a problem that you need to get sorted now, go to the hospital, not one that you can solve in a month's time. And sometimes our best clients don't have a bleeding neck problem. We don't want to position our group program to those. Otherwise, it'll be a really, really hard sell. So, The other thing I find that works really well with group programs is you have to lean into a very specific transformation. What is something tangible you can offer? So there's the nicheing piece. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: Yep. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: From there, [00:18:00] there's the curriculum design. I think a lot of people think that it's just about like taking the knowledge in their head and like recording it. And that will be a very mediocre group program if you do that. So obviously that's something I do a lot of in amplify is like the, well, how do we actually have people implement? In fact, that's something you commented on in the when, when we did a case study interview. Un amplify is like, how can we literally force people to implement by make holding their hand and making them do it so that they finish a video and they half implemented. And so many people don't even think about implementation. They think they just need to give people the steps. People will go off and take the action, and it's very, very hard for people to do. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: Absolutely. I have to say and amplify that was probably one of my biggest lessons in terms of how I created my group, was short videos, but also the structure of it and my, if you're listening and you've done Bloom, you will recognize this. It will be. This is the context. This is what we're aiming for in this module, right? This is the first step. Pause the video, go and do it [00:19:00] now, and then come back to me. And it's literally prompting people, every step of the way to do the work. Do the work. This is not an hour long masterclass, you know? Right. I'm gonna tell, talk to you about for an hour about ads. Now go and set it up. You know, it's actually about right. Here's a 10 minute video on ad copy. Write your ad copy, send it over to me for feedback, then come back and let's do the graphics. It's, it's just ha like the structure of it can make the sa such a huge difference. I could cover the same stuff in an hour video, but you're not gonna take the same action from it. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: Yeah, so learner experience matters, like client experience matters and you know, like your community matters, all of it. So the different components from the how you run your live calls, how you record your content, and how you design out your community for me are all aspects of how you really make your program world class and stand out. The last thing I'd say is people need way more bigger picture context than you think. You think, oh, I can just go into the steps and give them the steps. But they get lost. They get confused. They forget [00:20:00] what they're doing. They're like, where are we even going? So you need to really help them stand back and go, let's just look at the big picture of why you're doing this and where you're at in the journey. And that was feedback. I got time and time again and amplify. Like I could see people kind of, they lost sight of the end goal. I had to go back and put in the context just to locate them in where they were at. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: Yeah. Yeah and then in terms of your views on build it and then sell it versus sell it and then build it. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: Yeah, so I'm a fan of sell it and then build it. But then people freak out about this, right? And they're like, is that an integrity? How can I sell it before I built it? So we are gonna build out the framework. We're gonna map out the, here's what the modules are gonna be, here's the actions they're gonna take. You've got the framework and the messaging, and you've written your sales document. You're just not gonna hit record. On anything until you've sold it, because there is zero point you're recording anything until the money's in the bank and it's just a ginormous waste of time. So until it passes the credit card test, you're not gonna [00:21:00] record anything. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: And even when you, even, I have recorded Bloom and then I have rejigged it and rerecorded bits because even once you've done it, as people go through it and you get, like you said, you get feedback and you think, oh, okay, I, I skipped a bit far ahead there. Now I didn't explain that properly. You really need people to be going through it as well, don't you, to keep making it better and better. I can't even imagine it just recording it without anybody 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: Yeah. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: it or going through it. I mean, I recorded mine live as, as the first cohort went through it, I recorded each module for them. And that, was a really good experience as well cuz I could see how quickly it took them to do things, which bits they were getting stuck on, like how we could move them forward. And that was really helpful as well. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: Yeah, and I probably have a like maybe a 50 50 split for those that just choose to pre-record it to those who choose to deliver it live. And there's no right or wrong. Some people just find the live delivery less stressful because you don't have to sort out all the tech and some people just wanna get the pre-recording done and get out. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: . Okay. Let's talk [00:22:00] audience growth, because although we've touched on it and how important it is, I think it's really worth delving into this a little bit more because in my experience of just being an amplify and also being the ads coach and amplify, I. I see how if you haven't got a really strong audience growth strategy, it just makes your life so much harder when you are trying to enroll people on a more consistent basis. Just taking a step back a sec, with your business and how it's grown, like, do you wanna give us like a bit of an overview of like, where did you start and how has it kind of all grown for you? 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: Yeah, so I started out organically and I grew quite fast on Facebook using a Facebook group, and I ran challenges quite often and I got filled with one-on-one. And from there I launched a membership, launched a group program at the same time basically 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: Right? I just like loaded up. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: So I just had like six people jump into my first ever group program. I think it was two grand each for six months. And there was no structure, no content. It was like, just come get coached by me. It'll be [00:23:00] super fun. And at that point it had all been organic growth. As I started to scale my challenges, I started to pay an ad strategist to help me fill the challenges specifically. So we'd run campaigns to those. And I did those maybe three or four times a year. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: Yep. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: Then I had 2021 and I realized my audience really didn't grow even with that strategy because I was sending so many emails. I had so many unsubscribed, like those challenge growth, they just weren't meeting that. And that's when we swapped to more of a, always have a lead magnet running strategy. Super simple lead form, ad lead magnet, growing the list aiming to grow by at least a hundred a month after unsubscribes. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: Yeah. And is that just your email list or is that a combination of any other factors as well, like your group, Facebook group or anything like that? 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: Yeah, so the lead form ad points on the last kind of page to my Facebook group. So that grows really naturally and [00:24:00] organically as well. So the ad we mostly focus on cold traffic. Occasionally we run to warm traffic if we're running an event. And then the group is really to nurture and my email list is to nurture. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: Yeah, and that's one thing, I mean, we were talking when we were chatting before the podcast is running ads is an incredible strategy for reaching new people. Like there is nothing else like it in terms of reaching ideal clients day in, day out 24 7, you can be reaching thousands of people for a relatively small amount of money, but there is also an expectation, like you can start getting results straight away. Like if you put ads on, the likelihood is you will start getting people joining your email list within like that day or the next day. It feels very immediate. It feels like, okay, people are, in my world, they're on my email list. Like, let's go. Where are the sales calls? Where are the, you know, where are people? Why aren't people buying from me? And it's something I get quite a lot of pushback on is, okay, well I've been running these ads for a few weeks now, or even a couple of months, and I'm not getting loads of sales and loads of you know, [00:25:00] loads of sales calls or people buying my service. Why not? And my question, my pushback is always like, you've got to have a really strong nurture. Strategy in place as well. You can't just expect ads to do all the hard work ads bring new people into your world. It's your job to then nurture them and get them interested in what you're selling. How are you doing that in your business at the moment? 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: Yeah, so this is like a strength in my marketing I feel. So I send two emails a week. I run a monthly workshop. Which we invite our email list to and our Facebook group to, we run a launch once or twice a year. And I do weekly videos in my Facebook group. I also use my personal profile a lot, and we keep Instagram updated because our ads work well there. It's not part of my main strategy. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: Yeah. Just a few casual posts on that one. Let Facebook know you're still using it. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: But what I would say as well, to add to your point of why you [00:26:00] don't get instant results, often I find people target people too early on in their journey. So if your lead magnet is not like, Really speaking to the buy now point, you often, you've got a, a few like bits to persuade people on before they'd even be ready. So you wanna reposition your lead magnet to the people that are already sold on your idea. But then, yeah, I, we were saying before the podcast, like, probably only in the last six months of running my core program, amplify. Have I really started to get good at converting g colder traffic. So like those people that find me on an ad book, a call in the first 30 days, let's say, and spend a lot of money on me type thing. Whereas one thing we do in Amplify is we look at what your average buyer's journey is and we literally go to your clients, we find out how long they were in your world before they bought from you. And I find people are really surprised when they get that figure and they're like, what the average buyer's journey is six months? And I'm like, yeah, so do the fucking [00:27:00] work. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: Yeah. And that's it, isn't it like six months what you are doing now will be, you know, will come into your world in six months time, like that's near Christmas and it's quite hard sometimes, isn't it, to, especially with ads in particular, keep that faith and keep spending the money because it can feel like, and you know, often clients feel like, oh my God, I'm spending this money and I'm not seeing this clear return. But how do you kind of, how do you talk to your clients about that when they sort of are nervous about spending that money and not knowing if whether they're gonna get it back or not? 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: Yeah, it's a mindset shift, isn't it? Like spending money on ads now is money in the bank later? And I like to reposition it as, okay, well if we spend money on ads now and you are fully booked by Christmas, would that be worth it? Like, yeah, right. Or you can keep going with this dying of death social media strategy, and let's see where you are in six months and how much money will you have [00:28:00] lost. By not enrolling clients by then. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: Yeah. Yeah, I, I think that as well, you know, social, like we've just talked about, you need a strong. Like nurture strategy. But if you just, a lot of the time when I say, oh, the ads weren't working for me, or my ads were more expensive than I wanted them to be. So yeah, in an ideal world service provider, b2b, we want our leads to be, let's say anywhere from like two to four pounds per lead. And let's say they then rise at like, maybe it's, you're paying six pounds for each email address. And what I often get is people just say, so I turn them off cuz they were too expensive. But really the flip of that is if you've turn them off, you're gonna get zero. Like you're just gonna get zero people joining. So it's much more about, how can we test something out? Is it my messaging? Is it the, is it the creative? Do we need to look at the audience? Like it's an ongoing thing. Like just like you work at Instagram and maybe you put a relow and it doesn't do very well, you're gonna think, okay, maybe I'll try a carousel. Okay. Maybe that messaging didn't go down well. Like it's an ongoing testing thing. It's not something you [00:29:00] try once and then it's like, oh. It's a bit expensive, so I'm just gonna turn it off. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: And it also depends on the cost of your service, right? So like in May, I spent a thousand pounds on an event and I made 50 grand, you know, sales from the event. So that's, it's a no-brainer for me to pour money into ads for the return on investment. You don't have to be selling super high ticket, but you do have to look at, well, how much do the ads cost? Like six pounds if you are selling in a thousand pound offer. And it costs you six pounds per lead. That could still be really good. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: But there is a real fear. Someone said to me the other day that she had a client who had invested tens of thousands of pounds in her own coaching, you know, coaching for herself, group programs She was doing really well and then she turned on her ads and spent like 400 pounds on ads. And the cost per lead was maybe like eight pounds or something, so she turned them off cuz she was like, I'm wasting money. I don't trust, I don't trust the ads. It's like she hadn't, it's like she could trust herself and trust the investment in herself, but [00:30:00] trusting in the ads was really, really hard for her. And that is something that I've come across quite a lot. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: And to reframe this for that person, like my cost per lead for the three day event we ran, which is a bigger time commitment. Were nine pounds per 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: And that's so interesting, isn't it? And I do think that's one thing we don't, people don't see those costs very often and that like, that transparency of how much people spend on ads, how much those of costs per lead are. But like you say, you made 50 grand, so you're probably fine with spending nine pounds per lead, 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: Nine iPads. Cool. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: Cool. Exactly. I'd probably go to 10 okay. Amazing. So the last thing I was gonna talk about actually is cuz in my previous episode of this podcast I talked about the fact that I'm pausing bloom. I thought it would be a bit incongruent to come and talk about this without sort of mentioning it. And really what I wanted to say was, Bloom has been the most incredible pivot for my business. So I launched in September, had over 25 people through it this year, five intakes. And what it's [00:31:00] really, really done is mentally moved me from being a one-to-one freelancer into like. I'm gonna say like a c e o of my business, having to put myself out there and say, yeah, I'm good at this. I can teach this, I can help you do this. Feeling like I'm offering, you know, an outcome and feeling confident enough that in delivering that for people. You know, trying to get in front of. More people pushing my out, my comfort zone, reframing the selling piece, you know, getting way more consistent on my emails. It's all been such an incredible Transformation of my business. And at this point I feel like my business has changed and grown so much. I'm now focusing on the hybrid offer which I am really excited about, which is where I build ads for clients and then coach them to run them themselves, but more on a one-to-one basis. And then in the background I'm working on evolving bloom into its next sort of phase, if you like to work with the business and where it's at. And I guess that's what I [00:32:00] want to say to people as well, like, It's just for now, it's not forever. Like I put a huge amount of time and energy and money into creating bloom and learning how to create an incredible experience, and the clients I've had through it have been so successful and it's been such an amazing impact on my business. But that doesn't mean I have to run it forever, and it doesn't mean that it wasn't successful. Now that I'm pausing it for a bit while I kind of refocus on how I want to deliver it. And I dunno, I mean, generally you might wanna speak to this as well cause you've, you shut down your very successful membership as well. And I think sometimes when people think about changing their business or, you know, making a change, they feel like it's a real long-term commitment that they're having to make and that that's it forever. And actually it's just another, it's just another step in your business, like another change. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: Totally. Yeah. So I rebranded my whole membership, moved, moved membership platforms from podium to Kajabi, got everyone over and then realized I didn't wanna run it anymore. [00:33:00] So I'd spent, I don't know, 15 grand doing all of that and then closed it down. And then I changed niche right in, into the niche I'm in now, helping people grow evergreen group programs. And I've watched other. You know, high profile entrepreneurs entirely turn their business upside down. So I'm not saying I'm gonna teach evergreen group programs forever, but I love teaching groups and I love group programs. So that's where I'm at right now. And a lot of people are really interested in like, how do I serve one to many? They're done for you to service to Dun. Like with you is the hardest shift. So like, congrats on doing that because it's so much easier to help people that are already already helping clients, like do it themselves, shift to a group program because there's such a big mindset shift where you do it for clients to actually teach them to do it themselves. And I fi I just find that when I watch people do it, they have so many more mindset gremlins than than the 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: it's a really interesting one actually, and it is, it's definitely, I'm learning quite a lot as I [00:34:00] have more and more clients and. As some people come into it knowing that they won't ever do it themselves. And actually eventually I will do it for them, which I do, do, you know, like as in I will take them on as a management client. And, but partly that's much easier for me because I've built their ads from scratch. It's actually much harder taking over someone else's ads than it is as you've already built. And then the other side of it, yeah, is people that are, they really quite like ads. They like the idea of ads, they like the numbers about ads. And they want the control, but they just don't have the time to create the campaign themselves, and they want that strategy. That they can just follow rather than having to feel like a, they're committed to an ads manager long term. Or b, they have to sit there and watch a load of videos. That seems to be the biggest thing, really's like, I just want you to do it for me and then I'm happy to like pick it up and go from there. Or I'm happy for you to ma train my, my va and she'll do it for me. And that's another thing that I have done a few times as well, which is quite interesting too. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: Yeah. Whereas for me it was like, I don't wanna be [00:35:00] at in Ads manager. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: Yeah. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: don't wanna learn how to do the buttons, just do it for me. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: yeah, I am not interested at all. Fantastic. Okay. Well, thank you so much. That was so helpful. In terms of, if you've got someone who is listening to this and they're thinking, okay, maybe a group program would be something I could think about, is there an action they could take or a first step that you think would be helpful for them? 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: So my next step for you if you are interested in creating a group program is to send an email to your list tomorrow and seed the idea, right? Just use an expression like, I am thinking about starting a group program for people who want to and enter the result. I'm looking for five to 10, however you want, say the number people to be, to test this idea with me. If you would like to throw your metaphorical hat in the ring just reply back. And if I get enough people saying I'm interested, I'll, I'll run with the idea type thing. That will just give you an instant push and momentum that there are people that need the [00:36:00] thing and it will push you into action. It'll give you kind of that like spur you need to actually do something about it. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: . And I think that can be quite incredible, can't it one way or the other. Like, if no one comes back to you, you know that that's probably not the thing your audience are desperate for. However, if you get like 20 people suddenly back in your inbox, like, yeah, that's interesting. I'm interested. Like you say, that excitement and momentum is, is really encouraging, isn't it? 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--guest667131--gemma: Yeah, absolutely. And then one other thing, just reach out to past clients and say, I'm thinking about starting a group. Are you interested in jumping in? That's how I filled my first group. I didn't tell anyone. I reached out to six clients. They all said yes. We had an awesome six months. 2023-06-07--t02-33-51pm--61e6ab8871cfe400c02c7138--thesocialpod: Amazing God, Gemma, you make it sound so easy, okay, fab. So the two places that you can find Gemma are mostly in her Facebook group, and that is called Gemma Gilbert's. Scaling with group programs. And then in brackets, previously Mummy's got clients, which some of you will probably have heard of because it was very, when group were like in their heyday, it was one of the ones that was always, always recommended on doing it for the kids. I always used to see on there. [00:37:00] And then also I would highly, highly recommend joining her email list because as well if you are interested in it, she sends some really, really brilliant emails. So that is how to fill Your High-Ticket Group program without launching, and I will put the url to both of those in the show notes. Thank you Gemma, so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me this week. Before you go, make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you can receive new episodes every Tuesday when they're released. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd love for you to rate or leave a review wherever you are listening to it. It only takes a few seconds, but it really does make a massive difference to new people finding me. Thank you again for joining me, Sophie, in this episode of Lionheart Marketing. See you next time.