Ep 14: Should I Care About... Overcomplicating My Launch, Flopped Promo Posts & Whether I Need A Tripwire?
What this episode is about
This week on Should I Care? we (Sophie Griffiths & Ruthie Walmsley) get into overcomplicating your launch, which is one of the easiest things in the world to do and pretty much always comes from the best of intentions.
Because nobody sits down and decides to build a six-step funnel. It starts with one completely reasonable thought: maybe I'll add a workshop. Then a small paid offer to warm people up for the workshop. Then a wait list, then an early bird, then a fast-action bonus, and somewhere in there you're mapping a 12-email sequence for a thing nobody has bought yet, and you still haven't sold the offer you started with.
Sophie is doing exactly that this autumn, a workshop into a mini offer into Outrageous, spread across two whole months, and she'll be the first to tell you most of her clients shouldn't copy her. Plus a launch diaries mini update from both of us: 44 sign-ups, 26 sign-ups, and the promo posts that landed with a thud in between.
Key topics covered in this episode
In this episode:
The first promo post that got zero comments, & the email sent at exactly the same time that brought 25 sign-ups in an hour
Ruthie posting at half 10 at night while brushing her teeth, & the 26 people who signed up for a week she'd only decided on that afternoon
Why we can both tell you the exact stats on every post & neither of us has checked an email open rate
The tripwire maths nobody does: 10% of your sign-ups is 2.6 people, & what that means for the rules you're building your business on
The launch 5 years ago where the bonuses genuinely worked, brought loads of people in, & then left almost nothing behind
meet your hosts
Sophie Griffiths
Sophie is obsessed with working with impatiently ambitious women who want to build a business based on connection and depth and refuse to accept they can’t work less and still earn big money.
A fast talking scaling strategist who teaches women to grow their businesses with ads, offer they are obsessed with and marketing that actually feels fun.
Over the last 9 years she’s grown the business alongside 2 high energy girls, a cavapoo dog who doesn’t understand personal space, an ADHD diagnosis & strong (positive) feelings about trashy TV (yes Off Campus..) & salted butter.
ruthie walmsley
Ruthie is a storytelling strategist and recovering English teacher ( and deputy headteacher) who helps women turn what they actually think into content people can’t stop reading.
One husband, one son, one ridiculous puppy called Bernie, an obsession with storytelling and a CV that includes some of the biggest names in the online business space.
Read the Podcast episode transcript
NOTE: This podcast was transcribed by an AI tool. Please forgive any typos or errors.
SIC - Ep 14
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Sophie: [00:00:00] And welcome to this week's episode of Should I Care with me, Sophie Griffiths
Ruthie: And me, Ruthie Walmsley
Sophie: Hello. How are you? Oh. how are you? I was going to say.
how am
Ruthie: How are you?
Oh, that's a good question. How am I? I don't know. Yeah, I'm good. I think I'm good. I'm enjoying the transition of seasons. not so much the rain, but I'm quite enjoying, the crisp sunny mornings.
Sophie: Quite nice. Bit of me. we've had... it's been a week really. My eldest is now... she's not at school, so we're trying to settle into this new world of what does that look like day to day.
she's doing so well. she's so much more regulated. It's so much nicer to be around her. It's so much nicer for the whole family.
she's doing really well, and this week we've had some support from my mom and my mother-in-law. and today she's actually gone to a, forest school for, I know, for home-ed kids. so yes, it's good. I think it's good, but there's been a lot of conversations with the school. There's been a lot [00:01:00] of, you know, all the stuff, all of the things that have to do with the local authority.
there's just, there's been a lot going on, and I think I'm feeling a little bit, a bit torn. You know what it's like when life is fine, and I guess life has been, like, okay ticking along. It's always been tricky, with the kids, but, generally it's been okay. I have more capacity for the business.
At the moment, I definitely... yesterday afternoon, which is a Wednesday afternoon, I, basically had to finish at half 12 to then go for an hour-long meeting at the school. Then I had to go to my youngest, , meet the teachers afternoon, . Then I had to have a chat with her teachers about her, challenges at school.
Then I came straight home and had to take my eldest to play therapy. Then I had to come back, and then I come back and it was, like, quarter past five. It's like I stopped at half 12, and I said to my husband, "Oh, I just need to do some work." And, I got the client work done and it, it's all fine but also, I've got a workshop in two weeks' time.
I'm trying to create more content than I normally would. I'm just thinking about,I don't wanna do all the things and then half-ass it and , , not enough people be there, [00:02:00] and it just fall a bit flat.
If I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna bloody do it, but I don't know. it plays into the topic we're talking about today is about should I care that I'm overcomplicating my launch? And I definitely think I am going for a more complicated launch this year.
And ... there's pros and cons to both.
So we'll get into that later on. But how are you?
Ruthie: I'm good. I just wanted to say as well, though, just like I think it's so useful for people to hear
Sophie: you know, humans are complicated. Our lives are complicated. At any one time we're trying to do so many things, and I think it, it's such a hard balance, isn't it? In that you're, the one hand, you're getting like this clear message from your daughter that this is helping her.
Ruthie: Like she's doing better, she's more regulated. She feels happier probably. then at the same time, you've got this other input from your life that is
Can I make this work for my
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: Yes, I can see that it's working for her, but can I make it work, how do I make it work in the more global sense of our life?
So I think it's just useful to people to hear [00:03:00] like that. I think easy to see lots of people online who
you know, living in Bali and seem to be, "I work one hour a day, and God,
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: million." You're just like, "Fuck off." Sorry, I realize that's really early in the podcast to
we're going straight in. I think it's fine. nice for people to hear.
Sophie: yeah, it's nice for people to hear a bit of swearing early on, just to know where you're at with us. I agree, and I think that's part of the reason why I'm sharing it, because it is really easy to look at someone and think, especially when you're in launch mode, and it feels a bit more shinier, and it's a lot more planned.
There's a lot more stuff going on. There's a lot more, outward visibility. and that does come, at a cost. I do all my own social media. I write all my own emails. I write all my own sales pages. And I could have support with it, and I've tried support in the past, but ultimately, I prefer doing it myself.
I am just someone who can't, I can't translate what's in my head to someone else, and therefore it just has to be me. And I outsource other things to, compensate for that. But it is a lot. And the reality is we're probably looking at, specialist provisions.
and she will go back to, , [00:04:00] some sort of full-time kind of educational provision in some way.
But she doesn't have any HCP yet. We're on that path. It's a very long path. And so the reality is this is probably us for the next, six months, I imagine.
Ruthie: so yeah, it's just adapting into it and working out how I can do both, and how I can , give her what she needs, and then adapt , the rest of our lives to make sure that kind of happens.
Yeah
Sophie: And I am so lucky that we, our lives are in a place where it is easier. But ultimately,it does annoy me a little bit, not specifically related to our situation, but when sort of people will be like, "Oh, it's so great, you can for yourself," and "Oh, you can take her to all those things on a Wednesday afternoon."
It's like, it is great, but there is an impact. it's not like I'm just sitting around...
Ruthie: it
Sophie: Yeah, it's not like I'm just sitting around on a Wednesday afternoon doing bugger all. I've got stuff to do. I've got commitments to clients. I've got work I need to get done. I've got money I need to bring in.
Ultimately, in a lot of ways, it's actually, it's harder for my husband, so he's employed. It's harder for him to just drop stuff and, take an afternoon off and be away from his [00:05:00] desk. But in other ways,if he has to be on his computer, I'm using air quotes, by the way, for the listeners,on his computer while he's...
I mean, he's built her an app. it's incredible.
Ruthie: Wow!
Sophie: she has, a creative task,, a PE task, a, maths task, an English task, but everything's branded around horses. She gets points for different things that she does, and when she gets enough points,, she gets to buy stuff from the shop, which is, a saddle for her horse on this app.
it's, talk about a great way of using AI. It's incredible. But you know- he built that while he was at his computer, and he's still gonna get paid the same amount at the end of the month. Do you know what I mean? Whereas if I took a morning off to do that, it's very different, in terms of like I can do it for a little while, but, for six months if I take a total step back from building the business, there will be a financial impact.
So
Ruthie: matter how successfully... you have built a business that has some of that flexibility, but you're always having to look down the line
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: well when do I need more people coming [00:06:00] in? Like, when does that program end? When does this next one need to start?"
And so yeah, it's, hard when you have that sort of, "Oh, God, you're so lucky." It's like, I am, but I also do work really
Sophie: Yeah.
It's still a lot
is easier in a lot of ways, but also it's harder in a lot of ways. Yeah
Ruthie: self-employed or working for yourself is harder easier than being employed. at certain times in the year I'm like, "God, this would be a lot easier if I was just employed."
Sophie: Yeah. Yeah. Oof. Yeah
Ruthie: I'm like, "Ooh, that's different to what it was when I was a teacher." But, anyway, I'm glad that it's, Doing good things for your
Sophie: Yes. Yeah
Ruthie: you can find a balance that feels less, 'cause it sounds like a lot.
Sophie: Yeah, it's a lot, yeah. How are you anyway?
Ruthie: answer your question, yeah, absolutely fine. No,
Sophie: Yeah, I'm all good.
Ruthie: I've
Sophie: I'm all good
I'm feeling like I am, getting more into being back at work after the summer. Yeah
Ruthie: like Wilf's, touch wood, back in school, albeit with a fractured foot, he is back in school. and I just need to fully get back into my routine.
I'm still playing catch-up a little bit. I still feel behind. [00:07:00] then I make... I don't know if anyone else does this, and I actually don't know if they do or not, it might just be me thing, but I make rules for myself around work
I'm like, so for example, I like to exercise in mid-morning is
Sophie: Sure.
Ruthie: Can't do
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: mornings, and actually practically can't. My husband exercises really early morning, so one of us has to be in the house. he obviously boxing or whatever, and I'm asleep, so it's
Sophie: Ja,
me. zo
Ruthie: but I can't do early morning 'cause I'm with Wilf, and then Wilf goes to school, and then I like to do it.
Sophie: arguably I could do it and Tony would just get Wilf ready for school, or he'd get himself ready for school, that's fine. But I really cherish my time with Wilf in the mornings. It's one of the things that I'm grateful for, since I left education, and one of the things that I hated about my old job is that I would leave the house before he was awake.
I really like being around him in the mornings. And
Yeah
Ruthie: anyway, but at the minute I'm not letting myself go and exercise 'cause I'm like, "I'm too behind with work," and I don't feel like until I'm in my normal rhythm with work, that I can let myself have that time out of my working [00:08:00] day to go and do the things that I know make me a better person, actually, and, make me less anxious and stroppy or whatever. I'm not really a stroppy person, but I am an anxious one. so yeah, i've set myself the goal of this week, getting myself back into my normal rhythm so that from Monday, start Monday. How do you know you're a millennial? When you
Sophie: Yeah.
Ruthie: needs to start on a
Have to, I'm gonna start Monday with getting back into my routine with movement and stuff as well, 'cause it just makes me feel better. but I am definitely feeling more motivation starting to run through me that
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: I was lacking when I first came back after my holidays. I was really struggling to feel that, "Oh my God, I'm so rested.
I'm so ready for it." It was more like, "No, I'd like more of that lying down,
Sophie: Yeah. Yeah, not ready yet. No, thank you. A little bit longer, please. Yeah
Ruthie: feeling more, more motivated. I've done some stuff that I wanted to do, and I think when you do that, you just get the dopamine from it, don't you?
Sophie: Yeah, you do
Ruthie: start to feel that momentum of okay,lock in, let's get stuff done. but I've got a couple of really big projects that I'm working on for clients, and there's one of them that I just wanna [00:09:00] get out the door because it
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: up an enormous amount of time.
I'm enjoying doing it, but it's just a real time thief, so I
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: that out the door, and then I think everything will feel a bit more normal.
Sophie: I totally get that. Should we do a bit of a launch update as well? So we obviously did, if you haven't heard it, last week we did launch diaries, which was us really just, laying it out there with where we're at with our, launches. Are we gonna launch? What we're gonna launch?
What's going on? Where are we at in the planning? We're gonna do another full episode on that maybe next time, next week, maybe the week after. We'll see how... We're guessing how much we've got to talk about. but we thought we'd do some, mini updates in the meantime. so I think where we left it was that I had completely pivoted and decided to do a brand-new workshop that was, like, hot off the press when we had the, podcast call.
and then that has launched this week. So when we're recording it, we're recording this on a Thursday, and I launched it,I say launched it, I started talking about it on Monday. So it's been, like, three full days of talking about [00:10:00] it. and I think it's going well. I always feel a little bit of pressure whenever I have, a workshop out there.
I'm always like, "Oh, are people gonna sign up? , How many people? Are they gonna be the right people?" I think it's really normal, and I check, , how many people signed up, , all the time. just keeping an eye on it. So phase one for me is just getting it out there organically.
So having the signup page, getting it out on my Instagram so I've I've done two Instagram posts, I've done two emails, and I've done a couple of, little story sort of things, pointing it to people. So pretty low-key so far. . i've had 44 people sign up so far, which is good.
I'm really happy with that. I know that what I'm doing is more niche than normal, so I know that I have a lot of people in my audience who don't have a group program but want a group program, and this workshop is designed generally for people who have group programs already and are finding them, harder to sell than they'd like.
You know, "Oh, this feels like I have to do some mega launch every time I get one person in," and [00:11:00] actually I just want, people popping up in my inbox being like, "Oh, I just found you and I found your offer, and Can you give me the info or can I j- have a call? I wanna jump in."
that kind of vibe. people who are not making enough money from their group program. it's great, people are jumping in, but I'm undercharging and over-delivering and this, cost per hour I'm probably, not making minimum wage.
Ruthie: Yeah. Oh,
Sophie: l-
Ruthie: a depressing
Sophie: it's always,
Ruthie: it?
Sophie: really hard and...
Or it's feeling really heavy. So it's like, well, it's making me money and the clients seem to love it, and it's not hard to sell, but, oh my God, it's literally my entire life and I just don't, I'm just not loving it. So that's who it's aimed at. I know it's more specific than normal, so I know that, in terms of, the volume of people organically who are gonna sign up is probably gonna be slightly less in terms of my current audience, but that's fine.
I still feel really happy with it. I did my first post on Monday, and nobody commented a word, so that was fun. fucking savage, and it's a real mindset fuck because what was hilarious is that [00:12:00] I wanted to get it out in the morning. I hadn't quite finished it. It was one of those things, and you just hadn't quite got it done.
So I ended up putting it out at lunchtime. I've had posts in the past that have done quite well at lunchtime. This one did not do well at lunchtime. I don't know if it was the timing or if I'm just telling myself that. But I also sent the email out at the same time, and I had 25 people sign up within an hour.
Yeah, but the post, no. No, apparently nobody wanted to use the post. People were replying to my stories, but nobody wanted to comment on the post. which is fine. , I wanted a post that I could pin at the top that was very clear about what it was.
Yeah, it's very overtly promo. And I wasn't ever expecting it to get, thousands of comments. but it would've been nice just, to have a few, just a few people commenting on it. just a couple, just to get it going. So I had to pick myself- not pick myself up, but just be like, let's not burn everything to the ground.
Shall we just carry on?" Because it's literally the first post, and we'll just keep going. Then I did a talk to [00:13:00] camera, and that did much, much better. So that's nice
Ruthie: I think the thing actually, just while we're on it,
promo posts in a launch window are like a white-knuckle ride. They're not for the
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: Because you know that realistically you've got to do some posts that literally tell people what it is,
Sophie: that are full-on promo, but you also know that the likelihood of them performing well or stopping the scroll, it's not even that once people read them, it's just getting people's eyes on them
I know
Ruthie: know, they're just, they're hard work.
And so solidarity,
Sophie: Yeah.
Ruthie: it is brutal
Sophie: It is brutal. I did it because, and this is the thing I have to remind myself, there's a bigger strategy, It's not like I thought I was gonna put it up and I was gonna fill the workshop. It's like later this week I will be running ads, which means a lot of cold eyes will come onto my profile, which means that if they see it
I want them to know, I want them to smack it in the face that I am running a workshop. I don't want them to have to consume a load of posts to realize that I'm doing a workshop.
Ruthie: [00:14:00] Yeah
Sophie: it was a bigger piece strategy. it would've been nice if it performed a little bit better, but the talk to camera one did well.
I've got a really nice one going out later today. Again, , I don't know if it'll get a huge amount of engagement. It's much more about client results, but it is another post that is designed more for new people than it is for current people
Ruthie: And isn't it mad that you know that? So
Sophie: Jaa näin.
Ruthie: was.
Sophie: Jee
Ruthie: knew when you, as you were putting it out, you knew "Look, this isn't probably gonna be the one that gets me loads of engagement." You've told yourself that, you know all of that, and yet it still stings, doesn't
Sophie: Yeah, it does. It really does. It's oh God, guys, excuse me. Rude. Could we just? but again, it comes back to that thing of but also I only want the right people in the room. I'd actually rather have less people signing up to the workshop with more people coming, more people who are the right fit people, than I would just anybody signing up 'cause they feel sorry for me.
Just ' Please, guys, please, can you just comment on this? that's pointless. Absolutely pointless
Ruthie: And even that's such a mindset adjustment. I think if you've done [00:15:00] anything that's had lots of people attend it's really hard to separate that. Even though you're doing it deliberately, you know that you've niched down your audience, you know that it's because you want more of the right people in the room for this particular process and program, but it's still,the amount of reminders you have to give yourself of "Oh yeah, no, I said I wanted fewer
Sophie: I know
Ruthie: I said I wanted fewer people but the right ones," is really hard. I, to Monday
Sophie: Yeah.
Ruthie: done anything,
Sophie: actually the podcast was the thing that made me do something, 'cause I was like, "Shit, people are gonna be listening to the launch episode tomorrow. I haven't done anything again." so I gonna just have, a relaxing evening with a bath and my book.
Sure.
Ruthie: Crescent City, for anyone who,
Sophie: Oh, I love that book
Ruthie: is in the, Sarah J Maas universe.
Sophie: so that was my plan. But I was like, "No, sort your life out. Let's do it." 'Cause I thought, you know when you just have that feeling like if I don't do it today, I'm gonna then start telling myself I haven't got enough promo time,
yeah. Not enough time.
Ruthie: I'm gonna
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: talking myself out of it.
So I sat at my computer and, did the signup [00:16:00] page, and just decided actually with that sort of sense of focus that I'm doing open week.
Sophie: Yeah
than... it kinda came to me 'cause I was looking at my diary and I was thinking like, "When could I do a workshop?" So I was looking, and then I was like, "Well, actually, on that week I've already got the workshop that I do monthly for the Bloody Good Story Club." And then as it happened, I'd also got the Red Pen that week, which is another feature of it, and, we do weekly co-working anyway. So I was like, "Actually, I could just do it where they can come in and have, basically the full experience." that just felt like an easy decision then when I saw that was really the most practical option as well. so I did the signup page. I snuck out a social media post at half past 10 at night, which I, again, would not normally recommend. We did so
Ruthie: performed,
Sophie: well
Ruthie: did so well and then, and I was so grateful because I was properly pacing. I was brushing my teeth.
I posted
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: did that post and ghost that I tell everyone not to do, where I was
Sophie: Yeah.
Ruthie: my phone down. I'm out
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: I set up a ManyChat so that I knew that I didn't have to comment back, and I was like, "Right, I'm going to [00:17:00] wash my face, brush my teeth." I chewed my husband's ear.
I was like, "Oh my God, I've just done a post out, and I'm gonna do it, and I'm doing the launch, and what if no one turns up? Can you make some people turn up for me?" but actually I've had some really nice comments on it. so far I've had 26 people sign up for the open week, which
Sophie: Amazing
Ruthie: over the moon about.
I'm so pleased. 'Cause I thought even if a quarter of them turn up, it's just not me in a room on my own.
Sophie: obviously I've told the girls inside the Bloody Good Story Club, women, sorry, not girls, that they need to show up. I
yeah. I'm sorry. It's,
Ruthie: and
Sophie: is that...
Ruthie: there."
Sophie: Yeah, it's non-negotiable, I'm afraid
Ruthie: so I did one email, one social post.
From what I can see, the vast majority of them have come from the social post, which is really refreshing and not normally what I'd see. just done another post though, and, like 92 people have looked at it. So that's, gonna flop, 'cause I can already tell that
Sophie: Yeah.
Ruthie: flop. which
it is like a really shit promo post. as in the post's called A Comprehensive List of Everything I've Been Catastrophizing About For My First Ever Launch [00:18:00] Event. And as I was writing it, on the last slide, I actually wrote, "Is this post actually, like, anti-promotional?
Have I just put you all off? Swipe to the next slide to see what's on offer alongside my anxiety." Because like, as I was doing it, I was like, "This feels like a bad idea." But I'm doing it anyway because, you live and learn. So I'm probably gonna have to do something else today now, 'cause that one's, clearly gonna floppity-flop.
But it's fine. It's all learning. Okay, guys? It's all learning
Sophie: It's all learning. And I think , that is the thing with a launch, isn't it? I think for me, the first thing is give yourself enough time so that you can then do another post, so you can then be like, "Oh, okay, that didn't really work." And there's so many reasons why things work or don't work.
I really don't think that you can ever get it perfectly right. And so I think often the ones you think are gonna fly really don't, and the ones that you just bash out 'cause you've just gotta get it out there are like, "Oh. Oh, that's nice. That did really well."
Ruthie: Ja
Sophie: but it is really about the sum of all the parts.
It's never about the one post, the one thing that you do. It's always a [00:19:00] case of like just keep going. Everything you do will nudge more people towards what you're doing
Ruthie: Yeah, and people are, like, absorbing elements of things all
Sophie: Yeah, yeah
Ruthie: it's not like just because... it's telling me 92 people have seen that,
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: that four currently liked it.
Sophie: Thank you
Ruthie: "Yeah, thanks." And, one of them's probably my mum or sister
Sophie: Sure.
Ruthie: Do you know what I mean?
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: but I think sometimes people are absorbing it, and maybe it'll be the next post or the next thing you say that make them take action. Or sometimes they're just noticing, and then a week down the line they're like, "Oh yeah, actually I'm gonna go and check that out now. I'm gonna have a look on the signup page," or whatever.
So I think, know, it's, just important to remind yourself of that though, isn't it? It's so- I find it so easy to tell other people this, but when it's me, I really struggle to hold my nerve. I'm like, every part of me wants to archive that post.
Sophie: ja. Ja
Ruthie: every single part of me is "That's gonna flop.
Sophie: I don't want it to flop. I'm gonna archive it." But I'm not, I'm gonna hold my nerve Hold your nerve[00:20:00]
Ruthie: and, see if it picks up or anything. But yeah, so that's where I'm at. But I'm really so chuffed for 26 people, and I've looked through the list as well and, it really is the people that are my ideal client.
It really is the type of people that I know would get loads out of being in the Bloody Good Story Club. and that is one of the benefits of having not huge numbers. if you're signing up 30,000 people, it's really hard to know exactly who you're gonna have in the room until you're in it. Whereas when you... 26 people, I can go through that list and I can look at their Instagram and I can look at what their business is and I can start to get a bit of a feel of like, are these the right people? So that's really useful as well.
Sophie: Yeah.
Ruthie: where I'm at. But I actually did it, so I'm
Sophie: Yes.
Ruthie: pleased with myself
Sophie: I'm so pleased for you as well, and we obviously will put the links to both of our, my workshop and Risi's open week in the show notes as well if anyone wants to come and join us for either of those. I do think one last thing I'll say on this, and then we'll transition smoothly onto overcomplicating launches and just, I think, business as well offers, life, everything.
But I think one of the biggest things for [00:21:00] me is it's so interesting to me that . I've done two social media posts, I've done two emails. I can tell you the exact stats of the social media post, can't really tell you the exact stats of the email. roughly. I'll have a look at it and be like, "Oh, that's a reasonable open rate."
"Oh, that seems like a good click-through." yeah, "Oh, that's good, people signed up." But I think it's because it's not public, so it's like it doesn't matter.
Ruthie: Totally
Sophie: could send 100 emails out and 50 could fail completely, , zero open rate, zero click-through rate, but nobody knows, and so it doesn't matter.
It's definitely something about, what's the visual on this? what's the visual of me launching my workshop and nobody wanting to sign up? Is that gonna make other people not wanna sign up? Is that gonna be like, "Oh, this can't be very good if nobody wants to do this"?
Ruthie: Yes.
Sophie: if no one else is commenting.
Ruthie: you know, a house has been on Rightmove too long,
Sophie: Yes! Ja, das exactly
Ruthie: "Oh." Like, when we were looking for a I mean, we've been in this house ages now, but when we were looking for a house, I'd be like, "Yeah, but that one's been on ages. there must be something okay with it, otherwise it'd have sold by now." And I do think it is the public failure of, like social media, where it's [00:22:00] front-facing. People can see your statistics, so people can see, like, how many comments you've got, how many likes you've got, and you're like, "Oh, I don't want people to look and think, 'Oh, no, , other people aren't interested in that, therefore neither am I.'"
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: feel the same. I actually don't even know what the open rate is on that first email that I sent. I don't think I've clicked back in it.
Sophie: No. Because it doesn't matter because you know you'll just send more.
Ruthie: it.
Sophie: Yeah.
Ruthie: I'm like, I've just sent another one, it's fine.
Sophie: Yeah.
Ruthie: it does, it's great.
Sophie: with you on that.
Ruthie: It's like the publicity of, being seen to fail it's really hard, isn't it?
Even if you're, trying to keep your own ego and stuff in check, it's just the visibility of success, I think. it is hard to stomach.
Ruthie: that post.
Sophie: don't archive it. Sometimes I'll put it up, and if I had one that I put up a few weeks ago, and, I think it was 25 minutes in, and nobody even liked it. And that's really unusual for me, so I took it down. And then I was like, convinced myself it was the time of day.
It's like nobody is around. I'll do it up tomorrow early in the morning, 'cause that tends to be a better time for me.
Ruthie: Yeah
Sophie: better, but it didn't, it still wasn't [00:23:00] very good. And I think sometimes,I think you just gotta get let it go out there, and you just gotta let it go and just move on to the next one.
' Cause
Ruthie: tired,
Sophie: go.
Ruthie: But
Sophie: It's really hard
Ruthie: it go. I'm just gonna move on. I'm listening to my own advice.
Sophie: Exactly
Ruthie: same. Same, basically
Sophie: and I think talking about this, I think , these mindset issues and the challenges, and not even issues, they're just challenges of, running your own business. Basically, when I started my business, I was literally obsessed with this. I couldn't get my head around it.
And I was like, " so I'd come from, a corporate job where everyone knew I had quite a good job, but, no one ever saw me. my friends and family never saw me at work.
Ruthie: Yeah
Sophie: I was... I couldn't get my head around how everybody could see how well my business was doing. I was like, "This feels so unfair.
This feels like I'm having, a, like a personal appraisal every day." every time I post it's like, "Is she gonna fail? Is she gonna not fail?" "How many clients is she gonna get in?" oh, people would say, "Oh, good luck with your launch." And I'm like, "I don't want you knowing about my launch.
Go away." oh
Ruthie: one
Sophie: my God. And I think that meant that struggle, that [00:24:00] challenge of it feeling so visible, and sometimes if you don't get the result you want, so you be really visible and you don't get the result you want, can lead to us to start to complicate things. So it can lead to us being like, "Oh, I tried to sell my..."
Let's say for you, "I tried to sell my membership, and I just did it without a workshop or anything, And it did okay. So next time I'm gonna have to do a workshop." Fine. Or your open week. Then let's just say this time you're like, "It does well, but I want it to do better. So next time I'm gonna do a paid offer first, then just to warm them up, help them get to know me more, then I'll get them into the membership because they'll have already paid me then, so then it will feel like they can go in more."
And then it can be like, then I... Next time I need to do a workshop to get people into the paid offer, to get them then into the main offer, ' cause I'll warm them up in the workshop because it's free, then I'll get them into the mini offer, and then they can come and work with me." And none of that is wrong.
the workshop into a paid offer into the big offer is exactly what I'm doing, this year, and I [00:25:00] think we could talk about the reasons why I'm doing it. But I am at a very different stage to most of my clients. And for most of my clients, I would say absolutely do not copy me. do not... Do, do as I say, not as I do.
Because I'm in a very different position- to... If you just wanna sell your group offer. you often... Mostly what I say to clients is, "You don't need to put all of this stuff in front of it. Yeah, maybe have a workshop, maybe have an open week, get more people into your world." But the idea of having to have...
I think for me, the challenge I really struggle with is this idea of, having to have a small paid offer to get people into your other offers.
Ruthie: Yeah
Sophie: yes, do it if you want to sell that thing specifically, but don't do it because you think it's the only way you can get people into your offer, because that is just...
It's just a hell of a lot of work and a lot of over complication to actually make that work, and it is a real logistics- time, energy thing, and most people do not need to do it
Ruthie: No, and I think it's [00:26:00] hard in this sort of online space where you can see how many ways there are to skin
Sophie: Mm. Yeah
Ruthie: you can look around the internet for not very long and I can be like, "Okay, so Sophie's doing a free workshop that goes into a sort of m- smaller paid offer that then goes into her group program." Then I'm working with, really big clients who are, , doing a low-ticket offer that leads to a tripwire that
Sophie: Yep
Ruthie: sequence that then leads to them booking a call, that then leads to them joining a mastermind, for example.
Sophie: Yeah。
Ruthie: different ways, and I've been part of all of these different ways that end up with varying outcomes that all seem really incredible and impressive. So I think sometimes When you start thinking about all these complicated ways to do business, you can literally end up not doing anything, like
Sophie: in the indecision of it. And actually, like, when I was just... It was the urgency piece , that got me taking action on Monday, but when I saw the opportunity to think maybe I can just do an open week and that [00:27:00] will
Yeah
Ruthie: I'm already doing, I almost felt like is that okay, though?
Sophie: low effort? am
Is that enough?
Ruthie: enough? And so I think sometimes it can seem like everyone's doing something complicated, and that's working, and so you've got to do that. But I'm at such a different part of offering my own services that are away from done for you than you are.
this has been the way that you've been doing your business for some time, and you've got all of this wealth of experience of, okay, I know how to get these people into this offer. This time I'm gonna try this way of doing it, and that's fine 'cause I've already got this people doing... You've got lots of moving parts. I'm working on one product
Sophie: that only launched in April that I just slid out there with some social posts and emails. I didn't do anything to really activate people. It was just like, "If you're here and you like me, come on in."
Ruthie: I did feel like, oh, is that enough? Is that enough hoopla?
if it's free, should I put a tripwire on it?
Sophie: Mm.
Ruthie: up, should I try and get them to buy something? 'Cause I know that there's data out there, one of my clients has shared, for example, [00:28:00] that, if someone buys off you, they're more likely to show up, for example, and they're more likely to then buy the end product. So I've got all this knowledge and I'm like, "Oh, maybe I should do that. Maybe..." And it can just completely lock you in indecision
Sophie: It really can. And I think it's so interesting about like the tripwire thing and the paid thing. if people have paid you, they're more likely, like you say, to show up and to buy again. There's definitely data out there that says that. I think the challenge is that often when we are, like you say, earlier on in selling our offer and you're still working like on the messaging and what's gonna bring people in and what they're really gonna hook onto, You need volume. . And I think the biggest problem is like to go for promoting a free offer, whether it's a workshop or a open week or a masterclass, whatever it is, you can really get into that, can't you?
You can just be like, "It's for everyone who has this problem. It's free." Like you do posts and emails. There's a real buzz about it and you feel really generous, 'cause it's like, you are, "I'm gonna make this really great and I know it's gonna be great."
Whereas I think when you're [00:29:00] selling, even if it's a workshop, like 27 pound workshop, it's a hugely different dynamic. It's very different energy. And I do think unless you have a really strong audience already or you're willing to spend a lot of money on ads testing, it's a really limiting way , to try and launch.
Because if you're gonna get people to have to pay 27 pounds, you're filtering out so many people and you have to get... I think, personally, low-ticket offers are just as hard to sell as high-ticket offers because you have to get that transformation, that "Why am I giving you my 27 pounds?" It has to be so specific.
So like I don't think people buy 27 pound offers just like, "Oh yeah, I don't care about 27 pounds, I'll just buy it, whatever." I think people genuinely are like, "Yeah, okay, what am I gonna get? , I know it's I'm not expecting the full transformation, but I still want something very specific."
Ruthie: Yeah, totally. And I think as well with that volume piece you mentioned, it's easier to have concrete data when you're dealing with big numbers.
Sophie: Yes
Ruthie: actually, let's say that you know [00:30:00] that, I don't know, if people, 10% of your people go on to buy Tripwire and then 100% of them go on to buy the fine product, that's great if your 10% is the equivalent to 100 because you're getting real meaningful data. But if I'm saying, "Well, 10% of my current signups have bought the Tripwire," that's 2.6 people,
Sophie: and I can't make rules about how I run my business based on 2.6 people. And so I think when you're dealing with huge numbers, you can start to see these data patterns that become meaningful. But often the conversion rates and stuff are still low,
Ja.
Ruthie: just the
Sophie: Ja
Ruthie: volume is so much bigger.
And so we can complicate businesses based on the profiles and the status of bigger businesses
not work in the same way for when you're dealing with tens of people rather than, tens of thousands of people.
Sophie: so I do think that volume thing can distort as well how we think.
Ruthie: And also when you're tried and tested. So if I'm like, let's say in an ideal world,
Sophie: do my open week, I have [00:31:00] more people than I could ever have imagined turn up,
And all of a sudden I'm dealing with numbers that I'm, , probably panicking about. But I have all these people turn up and I'm like, "Okay, , they're all in there now, and that's earning me money."
Ruthie: That means the next time I can be like, I'm gonna add a Tripwire," because it doesn't matter.
Sophie: Yeah. Yeah
Ruthie: as much, because I've already got this business turning over. I've got this happening for me. So I'm gonna try out some different things. And I do almost think that's kind of the situation that you're in, in that you've got, some parts of your business that you now can run in ways that feel really good.
when you were talking about,
superfan Sprint, , where you've, done it over a week, you've done it over six months, because you're in this position where you've got the stability, the foundations to experiment and see. Whereas, loads of us that aren't there yet, where it's like, can't bloody experiment because I haven't got anything proven yet. I wanna lock that bit in first.
Sophie: I think that's exactly it. And that is why, I'm doing a workshop into a mini-offer, then into Outrageous. Because I want to try- I wanna do a mini-offer anyway, I wanna sell into Outrageous, [00:32:00] and I really like doing workshops. So , this is basically... What I would say as well, is that this is not a condensed plan.
This is not a three-week thing. This is basically in the next two months. So I started on, what, Monday promoting it, which was the 7th of September. And when we work it through, people'll be starting in Outrageous on the 2nd of November. So it is pretty much the whole of September and October.
I'm really working on my own, I don't wanna say mindset, but around it not feeling like a high-pressure launch. I can't be in high-pressure launch mode for two full months.
Ruthie: No
Sophie: And that's almost part of the point for me, is . i want to get to a point where I can do these things and it feels more run-of-the-mill, and it still gets the results.
it feels more like, "Yeah, okay, I'm running a workshop." That happens every month or couple of months anyway. I'm gonna roll out the post. I know what the messaging is. I'm gonna do this great offer, and then people are gonna come into Outrageous, without it feeling like, "Oh my God, this has to be some, big song and dance, and, huge emotion and energy and everything."
So I guess I'm trying to, teach myself that we can have, [00:33:00] prolonged things, and that actually I can have a great time on a workshop, I can have a great time doing a mini-offer, and I can have a great time in Outrageous, and that all three things don't have to be dependent on each other. Do you know what I mean? And trying to separate. Although they are, like, for me, there is a linked journey there, that actually doesn't have to be the case, and that the people that come to the workshop and then don't do anything else with me, still amazing. I still want them there. I still want them in my world.
I still want them to be able to come to the workshop and get,great, useful information that they can take away and use, and that is enough. That's okay
Ruthie: what an amazing nurture experience
Sophie: Yes, exactly
Ruthie: is come to that workshop, have an amazing time, think, "Gosh, Sophie's great. I'd definitely do something with Sophie again," and then for a while that's it. But then it might be that the next time you launch something or you're talking about something and the timing's better or their cashflow's better or they've got more spaciousness or whatever it is, that they might then be like, "Okay, I'm gonna come in."
And this is an example actually. So I did an in-person workshop last year that a woman came to. and she was lovely. And then I [00:34:00] ran another one at Christmas, and she messaged me and said, "I was gonna come to it, but I really haven't activated any of the amazing things that I did with you from last time. So I've told myself that instead of coming to another day where I'm gonna get more things to do, I'm gonna really try and dig in and do the work that we came up with last time." I was like, "Great. That sounds like such a good plan. I'm watching you. You can do this," blah, blah,
Sophie: And then she signed up for my open week, and obviously I've kept an eye and I can see that she hasn't managed to get into good consistency with her content and it's still obviously a barrier for
Ruthie: I know that she would never have joined my open week if she hadn't have come to my in-person event. and that's a year ago. It was more than a year ago, I'm probably gonna pay dividends for it if she does join, great, amazing. But at some point I'm confident that she'll perhaps do something again with me, whether it's another in-person event or whether it's joining the club, whatever it is.
So I think also like reminding ourselves that sometimes it's a not now
Sophie: Yeah.
Ruthie: than a not never.
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: on. That's not good English. Not ever I meant. Think.
Sophie: the English teacher.
Ruthie: I know. Sorry about that, guys.
Sophie: I [00:35:00] think the other thing that was coming to mind when you were talking there is that I think There's complicating the actual, way we bring people into offers, the way we launch,that bigger picture. But I also think one of the things my clients can get themselves in a right little tizz about, like, all tied up in knots is, do I have bonuses, an early bird offer?
Is there a fast action bonus? , When does the early bird finish? Is there a wait list? Do I start with a wait list and then do I move to an early bird, and then is there fast action bonuses? And is there a discount as well? When does the discount come into it? And I think it's so easy to think that...
And again, I think this comes from a place of not feeling confident in the offer and that it's gonna sell easily. 'Cause when you feel like an offer's not gonna sell easily, it's like you feel like you need to, yeah, reduce the price, make it more accessible, give people, , extra bonuses and, make them take fast action.
And all of those things are really valid and they can be used incredibly effectively. But I think it is a really easy way to get yourself tied up in knots [00:36:00] around how you're actually selling your offer
Ruthie: Oh, I completely agree. And again, sometimes it's just like you see all these other things and you think, "Oh my God, I need to be doing that as well." And again, I think I'm probably subject to tying myself in knots sometimes about this sort of stuff. I'm like, maybe I should do, maybe I should do that.
Maybe I should do this." And those things can be brilliant. I
Sophie: Yeah.
Ruthie: list.
Sophie: wait lists are great for your nervous system sometimes
get some people on there that have already said, "Yeah, I'm pretty much interested here, tell me more," that can make you feel like, okay, that's good. And I also think they're a great way to test an audience as well. I did a course a while ago, mean, I couldn't do this, but I enjoy it,
Yeah
Ruthie: they were saying "Do a wait list before you've done anything. Do not write a single word. Do not create a single page. Do not give the offer a title. Don't even decide what it is. Nothing. Just do a wait list that talks about the problem, that
Sophie: Oh.
Ruthie: what's the transformation? What's the problem?
Sophie: Find out then what the interest is.
find out.", Then they were saying to then, basically email those people [00:37:00] give them that says, "Would you prefer this and this?"
Ruthie: And then develop it for them that it becomes bespoke. And then so that you're only ever investing your time creating once you know that you've definitely got people that are interested. And whilst , I don't think I could do that, I don't think that's for me. But I do think sometimes it's the risk of having this really funnel
Sophie: of okay, and then they get this nurture sequence, and they're gonna get 12 emails that's gonna come between this date and this date.
Ruthie: What if you get to the end of that and not a single person converts? And you've done all this work and all this planning, and you've planned out this meticulous funnel all these like moments of genius that seem really good on paper, but actually when you get to actually delivering them, they're not working, people aren't buying it. And also, you can end up devaluing what you're left with at the end
Sophie: what you've gotta deliver. yeah, I think one of the things that I've experienced in a launch that I've been involved in, this was probably five years ago now. and the launch wasn't going quite like we [00:38:00] wanted it to.
of that sticky second launch of the same product where probably the list hadn't been, grown again. And so once the launch was open, we could see people weren't really coming in. We were throwing the book at it and we were like coming up with another bonus.
Ruthie: "Here's an early bird bonus. Here's a mic drop bonus. Here's a last chance bonus." it did bring people in, it really did. They were incredible bonuses. Loads of people came in because of them. the delivery of those-
Just made that offer then not really very profitable. Felt like incredible hard work for the person that was delivering all of these bonuses.
It was, one-to-ones,
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: days. there was all this stuff that then had additional costs attached to it, and just the huge time investment. so I think as well you can over complicate it for the want of sales, but actually how profitable it then becomes when you've got all of this additional delivery, and like you say, you work out your cost per hour, and you're like, "Wow, that doesn't feel great
Sophie: I think the wait list one is really interesting, isn't it? Of I love the idea. I totally get the concept of it, and I think [00:39:00] the theory behind it is really good. only build stuff that people want. I think the challenge is for me, again, like back to what you were saying earlier, is like volume.
Of like, if I put something out there without a name, without a big sales pitch, without the momentum, the build-up, all the other stuff. If I just put something out there, the reality is the numbers are gonna be relatively small, and I still don't know if they're actually just on the wait list 'cause they're like me or whether they actually need the thing.
But I do agree. I do think,untested offers when you put a huge amount of work into them when they're totally untested is really hard. and I generally don't create what I'm selling until it's sold. I create as I go, but that is a whole nother conversation because that's the only way that I can actually make myself do it.
Ruthie: I think as well, like something that I see people complicate, and I've worked on so many launches,
it's like overcomplicating, , what they're saying in the emails,
Sophie: the sales page has to be. [00:40:00] Overcomplicating the actual offer.
I read sales pages, and maybe I'm editing them for someone, or I'm just reading as a potential customer. I'm like, "What am I actually... Can you at some point tell me what it is?"
Ruthie: I've got a real bee in my bonnet about the way people write headlines, for example, And it's always done from a good place, it sound so great and...
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: but what is it?" what do you mean by... You sometimes we have these crazy names for things, and I'm like, "What is it?" And I caught myself doing it. I was like, "Maybe I could call it an open house.
it an activation. Maybe I could call it something, snazzy." And I was like, "No, I'm just gonna call it open week so that people get that actually what they're coming in for is an open week of the container that I'm selling."
we can overcomplicate the way that we describe our offers, the way that we try to sell the offer.
S- often sales pages drive me mad when I'm 12 pages in
and I'm like, "I still don't know how much it costs.
Sophie: I still don't know what my time commitment is.
Yeah
Ruthie: don't know what I'm actually getting. I just need you to give me some really [00:41:00] clear information." I think we can overcomplicate the way that we write about our offers as well.
Sophie: Yeah. And I do think that comes back to a lot of advice around messaging often, which is sell the transformation, sell the vision, take them from where they are now to where they wanna be, which, totally buy into all of that. But I definitely remember being told, obviously not by you or any of my current coaches, but I would say this is a historic thing for me of no one's interested in the logistics.
don't get caught up in the detail. Don't get caught up in selling that there's 12 modules. And I get that. I totally get that. But I think there are some logistics that people do need to know, for example, the price. for me, I really do need to know when the calls are, because I have signed up to programs before where, the calls have been like Wednesday at 5:00 PM, and I've kidded myself that, "Oh, yeah, that'll be fine.
I'll have it on in the background while I'm cooking the girls dinner." of course that's not gonna fucking work. goodness sake, Sophie. It's all... it's totally on me, but... And I'm... unfortunately I'm someone that just doesn't watch replays. [00:42:00] so that's out. that's just out
Ruthie: want to be that
Sophie: I know. I know. I'm just not. It's never gonna happen. So I really do need to know when the calls are. I do need to know how much it is. I do need to know what the time investment is. And actually, to be really honest, I want to know, is it in Slack, or is it a WhatsApp group? Because if it's a WhatsApp group, I'm afraid I'm out.
cannot cope with a WhatsApp group of a large group of people. I don't want to be doing that on my phone on WhatsApp. I want it to be more like a platform like Circle or Slack or, something that's actually designed for high volume, conversations. So that sort of stuff actually genuinely does really matter to me.
Ruthie: I think there's so much copywriting advice, and so I totally understand people can get pulled in lots of different directions. and I think as well sometimes we're just trying to make it sound so good
Sophie: Yeah. Yeah
Ruthie: up doing is making it sound really complicated.
Sophie: we know what the thread is that's connecting it all, but the person who's just reading this for the first time and hasn't been part of your thought process is like, "What?
[00:43:00] Yeah
Ruthie: And I love a building block. I love things to be chunked for me where I can scan read and see it, and I sometimes think, it... not always, but sometimes I think a really long page can be a person not actually being able to nail what it is
Sophie: Yeah.
Ruthie: can offer. I
Sophie: think sometimes a really long page, I'm like, "I'm meandering here and I'm still not... Y- he's trying to explain it to me, but I'm still not getting." And, with the transformation thing, I'm a big advocate of, transformational bullet points.
Ruthie: give me five or seven. People read in odd numbers, so three, five, or seven, really transformational bullets in real language as well, not in
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: that you like to use, in the language that people talk in, where it's just "Come and do this and you're never gonna have to do that again,"
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: out this because even when you're feeling like this, you'll be able to do that."
I like those types of transformational bullets, not, "You're gonna be activated to transcend the..." Do you know what I mean? Sometimes
Sophie: Ja.
Ruthie: "What?
Sophie: Wat?
Ruthie: speaks like that."
Sophie: Ja
Ruthie: no one is actually having words come out their mouth in that order normally. So I think there is a [00:44:00] risk not just in overcomplicating the design, but also overcomplicating the words that you are using to describe what actually is it.
what are we doing? Is it a workshop? Is it a six-week course? Is it a self-taught program? what are people getting here? 'Cause I think in the early sort of 2020s, there was a lack of transparency about what things were that we've built bad habits out of, and I think now people just want more detail of, tell me what it is, how long I'm gonna have to spend on it. I think that's important to have right at the top of your page.
Sophie: Yeah, I agree. And I think the other way that I think, thinking of sales pages, that people can overcomplicate things is, A, how you can, join the program, join the thing. So for lower ticket stuff or, memberships, it feels like it's quite obvious. You just, you click the button, and you pay.
But I think as soon as there is another element, so it's is there an application form? so my worst thing, and this is just for me as a buyer, I don't mind an application form. I'm actually fine with an application form. I would rather do an application form than [00:45:00] just book a call, but I'm also happy to book a call if it's super high ticket.
What I don't enjoy is click here to send an email if you want to book a call. No. No. If there's anything free format, I will not be doing it, I'm afraid. Do you know what I mean? I've had a few of this recently. Contact me for more information. No, I'm not going to contact you for more information.
I want to fill in a form and know what information you need from me. too much of the buyer. Like,
Ruthie: Yes. making all the effort?
Sophie: I don't wanna make the... Just tell me what you need to know. or have the information on the page. what information do you need to send me that's not on the sales page? so that's annoying.
Ruthie: to add to that,
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: just gonna tell you out loud, I am never booking a call.
you are not getting me on a discovery call. You couldn't pay... you might actually, if you paid me, I'd probably turn up. But That is, and I am, like, a chatty gal, don't get me wrong, and I live on Zoom.
my whole work life is on different versions of video [00:46:00] conferencing.
Sophie: if you want me to book a discovery call to find out if we can work together, I am, I cannot tap out more quickly. No
Ruthie: Oh, awful. I still remember, I had the most gorgeous wedding photographer when we got married called
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: She's so wonderful, and her husband do the photography together. me and Ted have been married 12 years, so it was a while ago.
"Yeah, we Skype all of our couples that we work with so we can get to know them." The anxiety I felt, it was lovely, we had a great time, but I was
Sophie: I can't do this.
Ruthie: This is awful." And I still am just so adverse to, can we do it another... I don't want to.
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: and running I'm more than happy, but what is this awkward chitchat gonna be about?
I always feel like it's you wanna know something about me. I've already made my decision.
I've either gonna buy it or I'm not. Don't
make me jump through hoops, please.
Sophie: I think that's because we're quite decisive people. So I don't mind getting on a sales call, but I would say 9 times out of 10 if I wanna buy something, I for would normally have a sales call. I would probably DM the person and say "I want to buy this.
, Can you send me the link?" Or "This is my question," or whatever. And then so often they've [00:47:00] said, "Do you wanna have a call?" And I'm like, no, I'm ready to buy." I'm fine with it. I've been stalking you long enough. I've done my research. I'm confident in my own, decision-making.
but I do think some people like a call.
Ruthie: told myself the story that, they are terrible. What, when people book a call with you, , what do you think they're trying to find out?
Sophie: They want the reassurance that it's the right thing for them. So there will always be some version of, " I love the program. I love you. I think it would be great, but can I just tell you my specific circumstances? And can you just, double-check that this actually is the right thing for me to be investing in?"
because I think everyone feels like, it's "Yeah, I hear what you're saying on the page, but can I just check that applies to me? And can I just, double-check that I'm in?" for a long time, I didn't do sales calls, i did them from the Mastermind because the dynamic in the group was really important to me because it was so small.
but I didn't do them for Inevitable or Outrageous to begin with, and I had so many people ask for calls. And I found it really hard to be like, "I'm really sorry, I don't do calls. Because I'm [00:48:00] just way too busy and important. but I'm happy to do, a voice note on Instagram or whatever."
so I've gone back to, I have an application form now for Outrageous, and then at the bottom it asks if you're just ready to sign up, if you've got any questions, and then if you've got any questions, it asks you how you'd like me to respond. So you put the questions in, and then it's like, " would you like me to email you the reply, Instagram, or would you like a call?"
So I'm just seeing how that goes.
Ruthie: I love being asked,
Sophie: I'm like, "What's your preference?"
Ruthie: yeah, I love that because, know, walking through life you can see people are different, aren't they? Like my husband will actively avoid a self-checkout so that he can just go and have a chat with whoever's on the counter.
Sophie: I would always choose self-checkout.
stay in my own little world. I'm just gonna pootle on.
Yeah are different, and I think giving people an option is, potentially it is complicating things, but it's complicating things to make things better for people.
Yeah
Ruthie: an experience that allows them...
One of my clients actually she, had a business phone, [00:49:00] and she was like, voice note me if you've
Sophie: Mm.
Ruthie: Let's have a look, like exchange voice notes."
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: was lovely 'cause it's got some of the, I don't know, that, some of that tactile energy of like connecting with somebody like you do in a call. but without the time commitment of the call was one of the things that she was like, "I , haven't got time to have with everybody. It's hard to do a quick call. whereas I can exchange voice notes, and I can, be multitasking and stuff like that." And I thought that was a nice way of connecting with people.
But it's interesting how different people can be.
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: think you're offering something. Every client I've ever worked with who offers a call, it's and I'm more than happy to jump on a call with them, but it's just interesting how it can be received the other end sometimes. They're like, "Oh my God, no, that gives me the willies.
Like the
Sophie: Yeah.
Ruthie: awful."
Sophie: Yeah, absolutely not. Yeah. So I would say overall, what are we saying about overcomplicating? If you feel like you're probably overcomplicating, you probably are, and I would say the fundamental reason, driver generally for people overcomplicating things is because they don't have the confidence in what they're [00:50:00] selling.
Ruthie: Yes, I'd
Sophie: it's like adding more bonuses, adding more steps before the big ticket offer, adding more words to a sales page, adding,ways of having to, DM me and then do the application and then do a call. I think generally it's because someone is feeling like this isn't feeling easy to sell and therefore I'm gonna add more in.
And I would say generally try and resist that because , it doesn't make it any easier to sell and certainly doesn't make it easier to deliver.
and ultimately it just gives you more to do, which makes it just feel harder as well
Ruthie: I think so. And I think you're putting more things in to make it better for people,
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: sometimes if you actually track that experience
Sophie: Yes
Ruthie: the experience from beginning to end, it can feel convoluted. and so you think you're doing a good thing, and often it comes from like a, "Oh, maybe if this person wanted to do that, I can offer this, and then I could also offer that."
But actually I think you can end up, really diffusing what it is that you're actually offering.
and also I just think in this bloody crazy world where [00:51:00] we're trying to do so many things at once, simple's
Sophie: Ja.
Ruthie: okay. and
Sophie: Ja
Ruthie: you said something to me and I was like, "Oh, that's good," where you were like, , get really good at selling the main offer first."
Sophie: that's actually really useful advice, is that, actually by keeping it simple, that's where we can learn loads. At this stage, I can just learn works about the Bloody Good Story Club, what do people wanna hear about it. And, as time goes on and I get more certain of those things, just like you're in that position now, you can start to explore ways that you can funnel them in different directions and have some people go off on this road and some go off on that.
now I think for lots of us, keeping it simple is, great advice
Yeah. And, just a little bit of self promo, having a group offer that is easy to sell is exactly what I'm gonna be sharing on the Your Fuck Yes Group Offer workshop, on the 23rd of September. So if you want it to be a little easier to sell, you should probably come to that.
Ruthie: Yeah
I'm gonna sign up for it. Is that gonna be weird
Sophie: I th- I... No, [00:52:00] I think you'd enjoy it. I think it'd be really good.
Ruthie: I'm gonna go
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: the post that you weren't happy with the performance of and comment the keyword
Sophie: Yeah, appreciate that. Yeah. Thank you
Ruthie: on all angles. But I actually think I should come to it because I think it's exactly what I'm trying to do, isn't it? , scale it. So
with me to Sophie's workshop, guys.
Sophie: Again, the link's in the show notes.
Ruthie: Amazing
Sophie: Amazing. we will see you next week.
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