Ep 6: Should I Care About... The Red Flags That Make Me Follow, Unfollow Or Buy?
What this episode is about
This week on Should I Care? we (Sophie Griffiths & Ruthie Walmsley) get into red flags! Our own red flags when buying, the ones that set us on edge with a new client and whether what we’re doing is actually red flag behaviour…!
Key topics covered in this episode
In this episode:
The qualifying questions to ask before anyone books a call, & how to tell a useful one from a question that just sounds good
The alternatives to a discovery call for people who find them excruciating
Why putting the price on the page is not a pricing decision, & what people assume when it isn't there
The 2 different types of red flag client, & why telling them apart changes what you do about it
How to design an offer for people who learn completely differently, & the expectation to set at the start so nobody feels short-changed
meet your hosts
Sophie Griffiths
Sophie is obsessed with working with impatiently ambitious women who want to build a business based on connection and depth and refuse to accept they can’t work less and still earn big money.
A fast talking scaling strategist who teaches women to grow their businesses with ads, offer they are obsessed with and marketing that actually feels fun.
Over the last 9 years she’s grown the business alongside 2 high energy girls, a cavapoo dog who doesn’t understand personal space, an ADHD diagnosis & strong (positive) feelings about trashy TV (yes Off Campus..) & salted butter.
ruthie walmsley
Ruthie is a storytelling strategist and recovering English teacher ( and deputy headteacher) who helps women turn what they actually think into content people can’t stop reading.
One husband, one son, one ridiculous puppy called Bernie, an obsession with storytelling and a CV that includes some of the biggest names in the online business space.
Read the Podcast episode transcript
NOTE: This podcast was transcribed by an AI tool. Please forgive any typos or errors.
SIC - Episode 6
===
Sophie: . [00:00:00] hello, and welcome to this week's episode of Should I Care with me, Sophie Griffiths
Ruthie: and me, Ruthie Walmsley
Sophie: Hello, how are you, love?
Ruthie: I'm good, thank you, babe. How are you?
Sophie: Oh, I'd say, I would say it's been a bit of a week of highs and lows here. Bit of a--
Ruthie: us through
Sophie: Talk us through it. Bit of a mixed week. We have had transition day here, for the children at school, and while my youngest, who's going from year one into year two, is not with her best friend in her year two class.
Ouch, I know. I did know it was coming, and I tried to tell her quite a few times, but I know this will, surprise everyone massively, but my children are quite headstrong. They know their own minds, and she just kept telling me that I was wrong.
Ruthie: Fair.
Sophie: So she-- I was like, I was basically, I was like, "No, darling, she's not-- I don't think she's gonna be in your class next year."
And she's like, "No, she is. No, she is." Fuck. What, what do you say to that? "Oh, okay, okay."
Ruthie: people like to learn the hard way
Sophie: Exactly. she learned the hard way yesterday. So that was quite tough. And then [00:01:00] my eldest is, so she's been in the same class with the same children for two years, and then they shift everything this year, and she's autistic.
She finds change very hard, and yeah, it's been... It's a lot. It's the end of term. It's hot. Everyone's tired. She's not got a huge amount of capacity left, and she loves her current teacher, and I think that makes it hard, doesn't it? To then transition to,
Ruthie: a wrench.
Sophie: such a wrench. Yeah
Ruthie: , When you've created such safety with one teacher and then you have to move on. It is hard
Sophie: Yeah, it's really hard. But on the plus side, I ran my masterclass yesterday for Outrageous. It was good. It was good. I found a way of explaining something that I haven't really been able to explain before. And I think it really clicked with people, and there's just nothing better than when you see something really landing with people and being like, I don't know.
My thing with masterclasses, and I've said this actually on the masterclass, is I think I'm in a really privileged position now, and I've worked really bloody hard to get here, but it is a really privileged position that I can do monthly masterclasses and just enjoy them and not really [00:02:00] be hugely attached to the outcome.
obviously, I want clients from it, and obviously I'm opening the doors to Outrageous, and I would love to work with loads of the women that were on the call. But also, if anyone takes anything from it, and they can go and,, that helps their business, that also feels like it's achieved its purpose as well.
Sophie: And it's I don't feel that pressure anymore to be like, "Okay, oh my God," "Is anyone gonna convert? Is this gonna get me the clients I need? 'Cause otherwise I'm gonna have to think of another way to pull the money in this month." , And it is a really, it is a really, luxurious position to be in, and it's a really nice position, but I do find it makes delivering stuff like that much more fun like, yeah.
Ruthie: jealous of that, just to speak
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: because I haven't yet done an online workshop.
Sophie: Oh
Ruthie: no, I haven't. I've done, obviously, a great many for other people. So
Sophie: And I've done in-person workshops. But actually, as you were talking, I thought, "Why haven't I done one?"
Ruthie: And it's 'cause I'm bottling it. It's 'cause I'm nervous that no one will show up.
Sophie: I think, as [00:03:00] always, it's, inspiring to hear that you can get yourself to a point where you haven't got this massive emotional ego-driven attachment to, Mine's not even, if people would buy.
Ruthie: It's just God, imagine if I'm sitting there having blow-dried my hair
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: a Zoom room and no one turns up. Oh my God, I would die.
Sophie: But I think I still, that moment, and I think most people listening probably if they have done one probably will relate to this. It pr- doesn't matter how many you've done, there is that moment before you go live and you're, like, waiting to, see who's gonna drop in and, the room starts filling up, on Zoom.
And you're like, "How many people are they gonna be?" , Are people actually gonna come? , And I have really worked on, I guess probably 'cause I do have that fear and I don't really enjoy it if I don't get a lot of people coming, 'cause, I love holding a room. I love that buzz. I love lots of people being there.
So I've definitely worked on strategies to, , get people there, , and make sure that if they've signed up for it, they bloody want to come. And so I'm not gonna be bashful about, , reminding them, , getting it in their diary, reminding them beforehand, maybe dropping them a [00:04:00] DM and saying how excited I am that I saw their name on the list.
The day before the master class on, Tuesday? I sent a load of people who were coming who I could find on Instagram, 'cause it's not always the easiest, , , a a DM to be like, obviously I was finishing the workshop on the Wednesday. Let's be honest, guys. This is me.
Sophie: , Relatable, exactly. I didn't say this, but essentially, I'm gonna be finishing off tomorrow. , Is there anything specific that you, , wanted to get from it , I'd love to know because genuinely, like I say, I want it to be useful. , I want people to come along and get what they want from it.
, And yeah, loads of people replied, and I could tweak it slightly and, , most of the ones that replied then came live. they might have been planning to anyway, but, , yeah, I had a-
Ruthie: though, that you put some graft in. It wasn't just
Sophie: Yeah.
Ruthie: you know, your pure
Sophie: It's just my p-
Ruthie: which, we're all here for, so
Sophie: I know. I do think I should probably talk about that more. I think someone on the masterclass actually said when I was talking about, I don't know, one of the strategies I use or something, she's "Oh, you make it sound so easy." I was like, "I know." I think sometimes,when you're on the other side, it does sound really easy, but [00:05:00] I put loads of graft in.
I Instagrammed everybody beforehand, and then anyone that came live gets another. So this is another strategy that I use. Anyone that comes live gets, , a bonus thing of some kind, , for free. So I have a 15 pound a day ads, , swipe file thing that people can get if they come live.
Sophie: it gives you... I know, right? Juicy. So it's got, loads of ads in it. It's got ad copy. It's got how to, , write your lead ad copy. It's got the structure I use. It's really good. , genuinely really useful. It's not, , just, , a random PDF, and I feel really good about sharing it.
, I know it's a really great bonus.
and I DM it individually to every single person that came live. Now, that was, , 60 people yesterday.
Ruthie: Yeah.
Sophie: you are putting, you're putting in
I'm putting the work in. Yeah, I am. Yeah. And, , I think sometimes, , although my numbers aren't small, they're also not in the thousands. , I do have capacity to DM 60 people.
I want to build connection with them. Whether they buy from me or not is irrelevant. , I want them in my world. I want them on my Instagram... I want the conversation. So yeah, why shouldn't I put the effort in?
Ruthie: them. Really high touch and lovely
Sophie: [00:06:00] Yeah, exactly.
Ruthie: yeah, went...
Sophie: There you go. Yeah, thanks. How about you? How's your week been?
Ruthie: I'm just riding the wave of the last week of term, is what
Sophie: say. but no, I've had a good week actually. Oh my God, I actually spoke about this on my stories. On Monday, I don't know what happened to my brain. don't know what happened. I think I over-revved a pep talk I gave myself on Sunday.
a pep talk about how productive I needed to be this week, because it's the last week before Will breaks up from school, so I've gotta nail it. I'm gonna try and get ahead.
Ruthie: I got way intense with myself, which is
Sophie: unusual. And then on Monday, it's like I got stuck in the most epic brain fart, where I just could not make head nor tail of what I wanted to do. It wasn't that I wasn't doing things, I was just doing everything
I was like, "Oh, I'm just gonna start this and then...
Ruthie: Actually no, I'll finish that quickly." And then I wouldn't even notice that I'd left one task undone.
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: chaos. On Tuesday I had a much better day.
Good
Ruthie: really productive on Tuesday. I actually just Instagram storied all day to hold myself to account.[00:07:00]
Sophie: That's a great idea
Ruthie: yeah, I thought, "If I'm gonna get stuff done, I'm just gonna, make sure that after everything, I put it , on my story."
So I did
Sophie: Yeah
so yeah,, I'm just riding the wave. I've been to school this morning to watch maypole, which they
Sophie: Oh, sure.
Ruthie: village school.
Sophie: love it
Ruthie: normal. and then, we've just had all sorts going on. , It's my son's birthday party on Saturday.
I'm organizing a football presentation party on Sunday. So by the time I get to Monday,
Sophie: Yeah.
Ruthie: fine.
Sophie: Yeah.
Ruthie: I'll be fine then.
Sophie: Yeah. I think there are weeks like that, aren't there? And you're just like, "I just need to get to the end of this week." , It's gonna happen. Everything is gonna happen. It will get done, and I just know that once I get to Monday, I can just breathe and know that, , I've just ticked stuff off.
Even though it's nice stuff, right? even though the party will be really lovely, Everything will be really lovely, but sometimes , it is a thing that has to get done as well
Ruthie: Yeah. And I just think, like, perfectionism's hard, isn't it? I can't just throw a casual birthday party despite going to so many that I think, "God, that was great, and that looked low lift." I'm
Sophie: Yeah.
Ruthie: but it looked it. But I'm like, "Do I need more balloons?" You
Sophie: Yeah.
Ruthie: I [00:08:00] order more donuts?
What could I
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: to add to the party bags?" I'm over the top, and I get that. So yeah, just riding the wave at the last week of term. But it's all good. All good things
Sophie: I love it. Just talking of party bags, 'cause Ottie's birthday's in August,- I ordered a load of stuff and Eliza was organizing them, putting it into the bags the other day, and she was like, she put it all in and she looked at me and she went, "Is this it?" And I was like, "Yeah, that's everything I've ordered."
And she's like, "Mummy, this is not enough for children who come to a party. For one thing, there's no sweets in it." And I was like, "All right, babe. I mean, I've still got three and a half weeks till the party, like we can get some sweets." But she was so scathing. She was just like child- this isn't what children want, Mummy.
They just want the sweets." I was like, "Okay.
Ruthie: This is
Sophie: Thanks, babe.
Ruthie: And
Sophie: Yeah."
Ruthie: I was making them up and I got Wilf to come and help me. I was like, "You can help me." , And it's a pool party he's having, not at our own pool by the way, just at a local leisure center.
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: I was like, got themed , summer pool party themed stuff for the bag.
And one of them's like a little water shooter thing,
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: And he was like, "It's quite small." I was like "Yeah, it's gotta fit [00:09:00] in the bag, babe." And he's
Sophie: Oh, yeah.
Ruthie: yeah, fine." I was
Sophie: Oh my God. I'm grateful, sure.
All, all good
Sophie: so I'll tell you what else happened to me last week, which is gonna be, like, our general theme of the podcast today. as we were talking about,what's happened this week that's been really interesting? So I did quite a good post, I'd like to say. Hooray.
Ruthie: Hey
Sophie: mean, it's a little bit hit or miss with my Instagram.
But after talking last week about low engagement and you know how it's really hard these days to engage people, I found a topic that everyone wants to talk about. So I did a post, and I know you had a prompt that was very similar in the Bloody Good Story Club, and I've been seeing it, everywhere.
Ruthie: Yes
Sophie: my one was reasons I have or will unfollow you. And what was your one?
Ruthie: reasons to follow or unfollow me.
Sophie: Love it. Just flip it around
Ruthie: yeah, as you said, I've seen it everywhere online at the minute, and I love them. I can never really stop reading them. and so I made it a prompt for the women inside the Bloody Good Story Club because I just think it's a great way to share your values as
Sophie: both of those posts, yours and [00:10:00] mine, we're actually sharing the things that we believe or don't believe in
Yeah. And I love those posts, and it did really, really well for me. but probably not what I expected. I did put quite a lot of time and energy and thought into the things, and actually we're gonna dig into them today 'cause I think they're really interesting, and we'll go into other things as well.
But essentially, our red flags when working with people, being online, buying courses, , what is it that makes us think, "Mm, no, probably not"? And then what things are we like, "Yeah, that's a nice green flag." But just to say, the reason why mine did so much is because I just put in a cheeky reference to the fact that chocolate absolutely should not live in the fridge.
Ruthie: Harder gray, by the way
Sophie: Thank you. I knew that's why we were friends, but a
Ruthie: Yeah
Sophie: of people who I've now nicknamed fridges . I lo- you know, when you write something and I was like, "Oh God, the fridges are out in force." Everybody was like, "It should be in the fridge. What, even in this hot weather?" I'm like, "Yes, even in this hot weather, guys."
Look, it's not in the fridge in the [00:11:00] supermarket as lovely Emily who commented on it said. It loses all its taste. I'm not gonna go into it again because I could talk about it for hours. But you know, when you say something, I called someone a fridgey 'cause I was being funny, and then, when you're like, "Oh God, I really hope that's not, really offensive in, another context that
Ruthie: Yeah.
Sophie: not aware of."
Ruthie: yeah, Urban Dictionary,
Sophie: Yeah.
Ruthie: double check it.
Sophie: Yeah. Oh, have I said something that's really rude when I actually just meant, people that like chocolate in the fridge?
Ruthie: You are right though.
Sophie: Yeah. I mean, obviously I'm right.
Ruthie: But
it.
Sophie: we did also cover a lot more. I would say we've covered a lot more interesting things in the carousel as well. so we're gonna dig into those today.
What, where are we gonna start? What do you wanna start with?
Ruthie: Okay. I'll start with one,
Sophie: Go on, you start with
Ruthie: this is like an overarching one. Th-
Sophie: one.
Ruthie: some that are playful, but this one is just, in life a bugbear of mine and a big red flag, and it's people who use honesty
Sophie: Mm.
Ruthie: a reason to be unkind.
Sophie: Yes. Oh my God
Ruthie: I have got such a bugbear with it. You see it all the [00:12:00] time on, reality shows.
I love trash TV, and, on Love Island and stuff it's like, "Look, I'm just being honest. I'm just being honest." that might be true, but you're also being an asshole.
Sophie: being really unkind. And I do think that it's something that you do come across online sometimes, certain styles of coaching, certain, ways of communicating that are about,calling stuff out
saying what you want.
Ruthie: And I don't know, I don't particularly want to live in a world where everyone just gets to say exactly what they want all the time, because some thoughts are actually better kept to yourself
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: what I believe. If I let my perimenopausal rage
Sophie: truly all the time, I would be offending people
Yeah.
Ruthie: right, and center.
Sophie: I couldn't agree with you more. There's definitely something around, this thing of, like trash-talking or complaining or being mean about, past clients or past coaches or, an experience you've had, and , for me, it just feels a bit mean girls.
It doesn't feel, , honest. It doesn't feel like , I'm just sharing my [00:13:00] truth. And. it's hard, isn't it? 'Cause, what we're not saying, I don't think, is that people should have bad experiences and, just shut up and be quiet about them, and, not be able to flag something that is maybe systemically really not working.
However, I think it's more of a tone and a style, isn't it?, I think you can, call out something, and I think we all know there's, some kind of circles of coaches and people who work in the online world where it becomes really normal just to be a bit bitchy about your clients.
Sophie: , Every time, someone works with someone, you see them then badmouthing the coach afterwards, or you see them badmouthing their clients. And in all honesty, that does not make me want to invest with you. That makes me feel like I'm back at school, and if I do something wrong, and this is probably my slightly, autistic brain coming out of, I don't know if I'll be able to read the social cues quick enough to know that I'm now out of your gang, and I'm the one being talked about online.
that doesn't feel good. Why would I invest in that?
it does just... I think I'm convinced we've all got it.
Sophie: that we've all [00:14:00] got that little person inside of us who just doesn't wanna be left out,
wanna be talked about. you've touched on something that's so important there, in that there things that need calling out.
Yeah
Ruthie: systemic things that need calling out. There are horrendous experiences people have. It is in no way to say people shouldn't speak their truth. 100%, I'm here for that. But actually, some of the people that I follow online that are and talking about really complex issues can still do it in a way that is not vindictive or unnecessarily aggressive
and I'm not talking here about, the big issues either. I think how people choose to communicate about the big issues that are often systemic and happening in society is onto them. They don't need to, mute that for me. They don't need
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: that down for me. But when we're talking about stuff that's just, about individuals, and it's not big stuff, and it's just an opportunity to say what they want, I don't know, it just puts me on edge and makes me feel nervous. I had a power hour with someone recently, actually, and they were like, [00:15:00] "What do you think about, the style of,calling people out? calling them out on their shit and taking, a semi-aggressive standpoint in your hooks and stuff?" and you can see that works online.
It gets attention. It's salacious. People , stop the scroll for it. But again, it just makes me feel a lack of safety and, what I'm searching for online, and maybe it's because I'm a bit of a pudding, I but I'm searching for relationships with coaches and people I might work with online that make me feel safe.
I'm sure there are people who enjoy that style of things, but I'm the type of person that nearly cried in a spinning class because the instructor was a bit shouty.
Sophie: Yeah. Yeah, . I definitely think, if someone is that like, "I'm just being honest," and it's mean, it feels like, oh my God, if I work with you and you're honest with me, like, 'cause I would say I talk about being honest quite a lot and I share my numbers online, I did scaling unwrapped last year where I'm sharing everything that happened in my year and how I built the business.
I would never share anything unkind about anyone else or talk about my clients in a horrible way or, any [00:16:00] coaches that I'd worked with. I think you can be honest, and I would say, I hope my clients would say, that I am really honest with my clients , and I will call them out
I'm not just a yes coach that's gonna be like, "Yeah, that sounds great, babe." yeah, do that when I'm like, that's not gonna work, but I don't wanna be unkind 'cause she thinks it's a really good idea. I will say like, "Are we doing this , because we really want to or because you don't want to launch the other thing?
, Where are we sitting with this?" I feel like you can be honest and direct and not call people out, , but make sure that you're not just a yes person without being unkind or without making someone feel uncomfortable or like they've done something wrong or they're stupid , I think, it's the way you do it.
It's not the what, it's the how
Ruthie: so too. Yeah, and it's just being in integrity, isn't it? like honesty's definitely really important to me.
Sophie: I think perhaps working with teenagers was a good lesson in how to give
Yeah.
Ruthie: in a nice way that's not
Sophie: feel defensive and, so yeah, I just, I think that's one of my red flags is just the type of honesty.
Ruthie: I-
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: of working with [00:17:00] somebody, either , as their service provider or them as my service provider, if I get the sense that they are honest at the cost of everything else,
Sophie: Yes
Ruthie: can feel like a red flag to me, I think
Sophie: Yeah. That's a great way of summarizing it. Okay. My one is, my red flag is when people don't openly share the price of how much it is to work with them. I just feel like, could you please just treat me like an adult? I run a fucking business.. If you can't describe your transformation on a sales page, that's on you.
That's not on me. You shouldn't have to get me on a call to walk me through the transformation, to do a sales pitch, to then, lead to the price, to feel like you can catch me off guard and Because you have to justify the price in some way. Put the price on the bloody page and let me make my mind up.
why do we have to do all of this nonsense around it? I just feel like this is your issue with money, .. it's not a better experience for the client at all
Ruthie: I couldn't agree more. Honestly, I just have to keep [00:18:00] not saying I 100% agree, because I'm aware that every time you say something, we're just fucking agreeing
Sophie: We just always agree with each other, yeah.
Ruthie: but
Sophie: But I do
Ruthie: my gears. It... I really do agree. It just grinds my gears because, it puts me on edge.
I think it's shady. And sometimes it's not. I've met enough people who haven't put their price on to know that they're lovely people, and they've got reluctance for all sorts of reasons. But for me, as the customer experiencing it, I'm like, this feels sketchy." if they
Sophie: on a discovery call, I feel it's 'cause they're gonna try and, coerce me
Yeah
Ruthie: agreeing to something that I potentially can't afford. And so I just love the clarity of I don't care what the price is. I don't care if you wanna put that something's 50,000 pounds an hour on your page. Just tell me, because then I know whether I'm tapping out or tapping in, or whether I want to learn more about it. I just think transparency is so important, and, hiding the price behind all of these and also hiding the offer sometimes,
Oh my God, yeah. Not even... as well.
I'm like, "Tell [00:19:00] me now. I don't have time right now for a discovery call, or inclination, because I know that what you're gonna try and do there is sell to me." And at the minute, I'm just in the window shopping phase.
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: I'm deciding whether I'm going into the luxury shop with the super expensive shoes, or I'm going into the supermarket and buying the dupe.
whatever it might be. And so just hate that it takes that privilege away from the customer. I think when you're building something, you're building it for that person, and so to remove the privilege of them having a good understanding of it before they talk to you, ooh, yeah, winds me right up. And I always just assume the worst. I'm like, "If I have to ask, I can't afford it, so I'll just move on."
Sophie: Yeah. I 100% agree. And we're not gonna be able to sell. We're gonna have to ban ourselves. I totally agree. , I really don't enjoy it, and you're absolutely right. The lack of sales page, lack of any info on the offer as well, just go to book a call. I just can't bear it.
And it was interesting actually, it came up on an outrageous call the other day when we were talking [00:20:00] about, someone was saying , "Should I spend the time updating my website, creating a sales page? it's a lot of time and effort. I was thinking of maybe I'll just do a stand store and, I'll just put a list of my products and then people can book a call from there or buy directly."
And someone else commented, and this is the great thing when you have like groups 'cause, for me, I have such a strong reaction to this, so it's really hard when I'm the coach to be like, "Uh, no, we're definitely having a sales page. You're definitely putting the price on.
Sophie: , But , you have to work through it and understand ... what's your resistance here? Why is this happening? But someone said on the call, " Look, the thing is I need to find out more about you. I wanna go on your About page. I wanna stalk you a bit. I wanna go on your sales page.
I'll probably do it more than once before I book a call or before I take a next step. I don't really want to have a call as the only option. I also want to be able to find the sales page on your website. I don't necessarily want to have to comment for the word to get the secret link you know..."
, We love ManyChat. I love ManyChat. I use it all the time. I'm here for ManyChat, but I always put the offer, whatever I'm doing, whether it's a lead magnet or it's [00:21:00] a, offer or anything, I will always put the link in my bio, and it will always be available on my website as well. Because sometimes I see someone who says "Comment for, this offer details," and I'm interested, but I don't necessarily want to publicly declare that I'm interested right now.
I'm not at that point where I'm like, "Oh yeah, I'm all in on this." I'm just like, "Oh, yeah, give me a bit more info. am I in the market for this or not really?" I just wanna be able to find it and silently stalk. I don't want to have to declare myself.
Ruthie: FBI research. sometimes I just wanna go CIA. Can I make a confession?
Sophie: I know that I would ever book a call
Just what, without any information first or just generally?
Ruthie: I just don't know. I was just thinking, would I ever honestly book a call?. No, have I? I probably have, yeah, 'cause I'm pretty sure I worked with Alice Benham early on in my, business, and I'm sure she would have made me book a call. but my ideal would be to not have to book a call.
Sophie: Yeah.
They
Sophie: that,
Ruthie: a bit anxious
Sophie: and I think that's really interesting because I... So when I was [00:22:00] selling, Inevitable for a good 18 months, I didn't have calls as part of that process. I just honestly didn't have capacity in my diary for it at the time. So I had an application form, just gave me a bit of information.
So for me, because my groups are relatively high touch, the group work together as much as they work with me. So , it's really important to me that the right people come in, that it's a right fit for you. That just 'cause you can afford it doesn't necessarily mean that it is the right thing for you.
Ruthie: I always like to just make sure, like bit of information, so kind of an application form. And at the end I used to ask, "Do you have any questions? Pop your questions below and would you like me to DM you on Instagram, pop you an email?" And I think for a while I had book a call, 'cause I was like, "I'm willing to do it."
Sophie: Hardly anyone booked a call. Most people wanted to chat with me on Instagram . Now, I have brought calls back in for Outrageous. and you can just go straight on and book it. But I definitely would consider not having to have a call with me if that was something , someone didn't want.
But it's just, it's an interesting one. I think it's seen as a default as, the best [00:23:00] way and I definitely don't think everybody wants a call. sometimes people will come on a call with me and they're just like, "Oh, I already know I'm buying. I'm just doing this to tick the box."
Ruthie: Yeah. 'Cause I was having this conversation actually with a client that I'm doing some writing for at the minute. I'm writing a nurture sequence, for her. they download a brochure, and then it's to try and get them to book a call. It's high, quite high-ticket service.
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: I was like, they definitely want to book a call?"
Because my question is in general about booking a call is,- as many people it's attractive, I'd imagine it's a deterrent. small talk is so intimidating for lots of people. Getting themselves into a situation where they might feel a sense of pressure a real big ick for lots of people. one of my clients actually, Lucy Sheridan, she does an amazing thing whenever she's been selling anything, is that, yeah, you can book a call, of course. Yes, we can chat in DM. You can also have my WhatsApp, and we can exchange voice notes,
Sophie: Hmm.
Ruthie: texts. And which obviously gives that flow of dialogue, that you see in a call, but just [00:24:00] without some of the intensity of it.
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: we're more and more living in this world where,you can book silent hair appointments, for example. I recently...
Sophie: you?
Ruthie: Yeah.
Sophie: I would love that.
Ruthie: that... exactly, Soph. I recently went to have my nails done, somewhere different 'cause I couldn't get in with my normal girl. And when I walked in,, the chap in charge was like, "I'm really sorry. you booked in with this lady, but she doesn't speak any English." And I was like, "Cool." so I was like, "Do you mind if I put my audiobook on?"
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: was like, "That's fine." Sophie, when I tell you it was amazing.
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: time. I was like, so then the following week when I went somewhere different for a pedicure, I was like, I'm sorry. Do you mind if I put my audiobook in?" And the therapist was like, "God, I'd love that." And then
Sophie: Yes, please
Ruthie: like certain... and this is what I mean, is I may self-checkout. If I can choose between going to a checkout and a self-checkout, I will self-checkout.
'Cause sometimes I'm overstimulated, and I just wanna be in my own head. And I just wonder if book a call for some people is a bit of a, a deterrent. I want to work with this person, but I'm so nervous, or those make me feel so [00:25:00] socially uncomfortable. I know we've gone off track slightly there, but I do wonder if booking a call is a red flag for some people
Sophie: Yeah, I think that's great. I'm really gonna consider that because I do think it's a really good point. And I'll tell you what, though, I do think it leads to another red flag issue or interesting element. And I think part of the reason people have calls beyond the application form, is because sometimes that is the only way to work out if it's gonna be a red flag client.
And I think a lot of the time people use calls and they don't have an application form. So if you work with me, I will tell you like one of my big things is please ask people a few questions before you let them book a call with you. Because there's absolutely no point having a call for both of you if, it is just a totally wrong fit client that - isn't gonna be helpful for you, it's not gonna be helpful for them, it's just everyone's waste of time.
So I always have a... I mean, you can call it an application form, you can call it like a- few quick questions, whatever you wanna call it, but you have to ask the right questions. [00:26:00] And I always say this to people, "Don't just ask questions 'cause you think they sound interesting or you think they sound like what you should ask.
Ask questions where you can decide from those answers if you want a call or not." Because there's absolutely no point being like, how's your business going? How much are you earning?" If you're then like, "Oh, I don't know . i still think they could be a good fit, so I still am gonna do the call."
Don't know if that matters. So I think for me understanding who is your red flag clients and how you for want of a better phrase, weed them out. I think most people trust their judgment on a call more than any other process, and that's why people default to having a call 'cause they're like, "I know if I get someone on a call, I should be able to know if they're a red flag client or not."
Ruthie: Yeah. And you're right, if I think about when I've had calls with potential new clients, discovery calls,
Sophie: as you're going through it, you are thinking, not sure," or, "Oh my God, yes, this is a vibe. I know I'm gonna work with really well with this person." and, we were talking in, just before we started recording, weren't we, about like [00:27:00] actually even the process of deciding somebody, is a red flag client or not is a privilege.
Yeah
Ruthie: you know, I started my business during COVID by accident. So I left education, I'd got this huge amount of breathing space. my husband was like, "It's cool, I can carry us for a little while." I'd saved some money to make sure that I'd got three months or so. and then COVID happened in the
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: I was still farting about not doing very much, doing mind maps about potential career options. and then my husband came home from work one day and was like, "Bad news. gotta close the salon."
Sophie: Oh my God
Ruthie: which at that time was our only income stream. So there was, for example, at that point in my business, the idea of me deciding whether someone was a red flag client or not, I did not care.
Sophie: Yeah.
Ruthie: was gonna say yes
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: and everything. and so us talking about red flag clients isn't an ignorance to the fact that at certain points, everyone has to be a green flag client. If you've got to pay and mortgages and all of those things, we know that there's financial responsibility attached to all that we're [00:28:00] doing, isn't there?
. Yeah, and I've been exactly in the same place. not in the same way, but, if you wanna bring the money in, and if you wanna test out offers, I think often it's quite hard to know who your red flag clients are and what the signs are and, when you're like, "Ooh, okay, I probably wouldn't work with that kind of client again," until you've said yes to them and worked with them and been like, "Oh, okay, this isn't ideal.
Sophie: Actually, I think next time I would be a bit more wary." And I still think there are then, shades of that, there's ... So I would say one of my biggest red flags in the clients when I was doing ads management, and even now, but it was much more kind of prolific when I was doing ads management, was that ads are going to save my business.
I remember one specific discovery call really clearly 'cause I did take her on as a client, and it was really tough. And it was basically like, "Ads need to save my business. I've been trying everything. I'm throwing everything at that.
I've tried all the other things. Ads are the only thing I haven't tried. , know, it has to work. If it doesn't work, I'm basically gonna have to shut the business down." So every penny they were paying me, every penny they were spending on [00:29:00] ads felt incredibly pressured. I felt incredibly pressured.
And because I was relatively new to ads at the time, what I didn't do, in hindsight obviously, that's a good thing, is I didn't audit their business in terms of like,what are your offers? , How are you selling them organically? do you have an email list? what promos are you doing?
what are you doing to drive these ads? Because I can put the ads out there, but the reality is , and that's the reason why I moved in the end from ads to, broader business and marketing, coaching and strategy, is because, the ads are only as good as everything else you're doing.
They just amplify everything else. And
Ruthie: Yeah
Sophie: really tough lesson to learn because also I have a tendency for over-responsibility as well, and I felt really terrible that I couldn't get these ads to bring in the revenue that this person needed to keep their business going. And fundamentally,the ads did well from an ads, pure ads perspective, but they didn't do what the person wanted them to do and that was really brutal lesson, to be [00:30:00] honest
Ruthie: I think as well it's like there are similar things in the work that I do. Obviously, part of what I do is social media
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: or alongside them, however we're working together. and often a red flag for me is when somebody is talking a lot about numbers.
Sophie: how many likes they'd like to get, or how many likes they've got on posts, how many comments, how many followers they've gained. Because one of my, on my post, my reasons to follow or unfollow me,
Yeah
Ruthie: , Sentences was, "I don't know how to go viral." and like I d- I don't. If
Sophie: I'd be trying to do it all the time. And so when people are coming to me talking about virality or talking about wanting massive numbers, a red flag for me.
Ruthie: Because often those massive numbers that people see are either a flash in the pan moment that they might land on something and they get , this peak, and sometimes you can repeat that peak by doing that same thing, it's not necessarily something that has any breadth to it. Or they're getting virality or a level of virality because of the amazing other things that are going on in their business.
they've [00:31:00] got fantastic PR, they've got a massive ads budget, they've got all these other things that are coming together into this happy moment where organic does really well outside of it. So think, , in a similar way that a red flag for me when it comes to, with people is like a big concern about numbers,
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: my view on social media specifically is something quite different.
I think it's a nurture tool. I think it's, can be amazing at bringing new people in, but it's more about like what happens once they're there and how do you make them stay and so yeah, I think, a red flag client for me sometimes is when they come in hard on the numbers and I'm like, "Ooh, I'm not that.
Sophie: Yeah. Oh
Ruthie: I don't know how to do that actually," if I'm completely honest.
Sophie: Yeah. And I think, it's really interesting actually, listening to us talk about red flag clients, 'cause I think there's two different types of red flag clients, aren't there? I think there is red flag clients whose expectations and what they want don't match what you deliver. I have a very similar thing around , hands-off evergreen funnels.
I do it with my clients, we run evergreen funnels, but if someone comes to me being like, "I've got a £37 [00:32:00] membership. I don't really wanna be on social media. I just want ads to run, and I want people to buy from email only," that's not me. Like I'm, we're obviously very aligned in our approaches and I'm like, "Sorry, but I believe that , you've gotta nurture, you've gotta make super fans, you've gotta do activation events."
I think you have to do more than just whack on ads and get people buying. I do also think there is a different type of red flag client that's I wouldn't say it's a personality clash, but in terms of how they work or what they're looking for in a coach or, they might want the exact outcome that I deliver, but they want it in a way that I can't, you know, whether that's a level of involvement from me that is just not within the price point.
I like fast action takers. I like to be able to have a chat with someone, and then a couple of days later they're like, that's done. It's gone out. let's do the next thing. I've done this. What do you think of this?" I like people that are just like moving.
obviously not all the time, but when they're trying to achieve something, they are pushing for it as much as I'm there with them pushing for it.
Ruthie: Yeah
Sophie: really like that dynamic where I'm the one that [00:33:00] has to keep pushing them along, chivvying them along. obviously I hold people accountable, but, sometimes people will say to me things like, "Tell me what to do and I'll do it.
I'm great at actioning." And I'm really here for that. I've got, really comprehensive, trainings and, I will absolutely tell you what to do, and I can sometimes be a bit like that, just tell me what to do and I'll do it. But I do find over a longer period of time that becomes quite a challenge because if someone goes off and does what you say, especially like you'll know this with social media, but it's the same with ads as well, and building your business and doing a launch.
I can tell you how to run a masterclass, I can tell you how to do ads to it, I can tell you how to nurture your audience. But ultimately, if that doesn't work and you come back to me, it's like, "It didn't work." "Why? What happened? What's next? Tell me what to do." And I just feel like I want to work with clients who want to take their own accountability and be able to be insightful in what they do, and be able to like interrogate that themselves, rather than just me constantly telling them Okay, this is the next step.
This is the next step." It doesn't promote independence of like an ownership
Ruthie: and I think it [00:34:00] comes back to it, doesn't it? Like, how that relationship building's so important
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: it's partly why , that post works that we were talking about at the start of the episode. Because you've got to get into the habit of trying to attract the right people and repel the wrong ones.
Sophie: we will all have had experiences where you've worked with somebody and you thought, "No,
Ruthie: this is not good for them. I can
Sophie: vibing. I can tell that this isn't what they wanted. And similarly, it's not how I want to do things." And so I think it's why , that relationship nurture piece becomes so important. Because if you are just recruiting cold, and then a load of people turn up and you're just like, "God, this is not gonna
Yeah
Ruthie: they're not gonna get the most out of this experience. I'm not gonna get the most out of delivering it." Especially 'Cause, when you're creating something, you want people to have the best time. You want people to leave as a super fan, leaving you an amazing testimonial and telling all their friends about it. there's pressure on the person delivering it. but yeah, it's like calling out your green flag clients
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: them in. and that [00:35:00] means not just sharing the but also sharing the how. know, it's not just saying, "This is what you're gonna get," think it is making sure that the sales pages are saying "This is what you get when you work with me. This is how we work together. This is my expectations."
Sophie: Yeah.
Ruthie: allowed to have that reciprocity that allows people to get a guess as to what it's gonna be like.
I think there's nothing worse than when it's a shock, when you work with someone and you're like, "This is not what I was expecting."
Sophie: Yeah, I totally agree. And I do think, not to keep nudging you towards workshops, Ruthie, but I do think that's why things like master classes or online workshops or, things where people can experience you. Because if someone came on my master class yesterday and felt like I talked too much and my energy was a bit much, and
for them it didn't land, whatever I was saying, like definitely don't join my space because that's exactly what I'm gonna be like
Ruthie: Yeah
Sophie: the time. This is literally just me. So I think, I quite enjoy having some kind of experience with the person because I'll be really honest, for [00:36:00] me, when I'm looking, if the person, speaks too slowly or their energy feels a bit flat to me,
Sometimes I can find that really grounding. I'm not saying everyone I work with has to have, big ADHD energy like me. Sometimes I find it really grounding to work with people who are a bit slower, a bit more steady. I really like it. Other times I find it really frustrating and really like, "Oh, we're just not on the same wavelength around how I wanna work."
So I do think it's really important, and I do think that's why, workshops can work really well, or even, mini offers
Ruthie: Yeah. And to be honest, it's why I was, it's why I like talking to camera works.
Sophie: Yeah. Yes
Ruthie: I know we've spoken about her a lot, but the,
Sophie: Jessie Jane?
Ruthie: launch,
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: I bought it, and actually when you're in it, it's like just watching another one of her talk to camera videos.
There's such a level of consistency in that, there are elements of it that are a bit unpolished and, she's just very free in the same way that she is on camera. And I think, I [00:37:00] suppose that's why those can be so important as well. Sometimes it can even be that you start working with someone and you're like, "Oh my God, their voice is,
Sophie: Yeah. I don't... Sorry to all the Americans listening, but the American, some American accents I really cannot tolerate at all
Ruthie: But it's like such a personal thing, isn't
Sophie: It is. It really is
Ruthie: I'm sure over the years that I was teaching there were some kids who were just like, "Oh my God, her voice goes through me." Like I'm sure of it. and I think we all just have these personal little nuances going on that are little icks or red flags that we don't even know we've got until
You're like, "Oh, I can't..."
I bought a course that I spent a couple of grand on probably three or four years ago, and I'd done little bits with the person, but not... I'd watched
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: but I hadn't worked with them. And I bought it, and I was on like workshop one and I was like, "Oh no,
Sophie: No,
Ruthie: this is, like this is pissing me off."
I was not enjoying it. It was not the right experience for me. Other people that I knew that were in the same big cohort, it was massive, were like, "Oh my God, how amazing."
Sophie: Mm.
Ruthie: are we having the same [00:38:00] experience?" I did not enjoy it. And so I think sometimes, , you can have all of these ideas about what someone's gonna deliver, but I think you're so right that actually there's that red flag on a personality level as well, isn't there, of , how well you mesh
Sophie: . Yeah. I was thinking as well about one of the other ones I put in the Instagram post, which was around, you think it's a flex to speak to your clients as little as possible. Now, I think this is a really interesting one because I also talk a lot to my clients about boundaries, okay?
Because I do think there's really two levels of this. there is one where it's like you feel like,, you wanna be their best friend, you are there 24/7, you're replying to them, wherever you are, whatever you're doing, And . i often think, and I have had this before myself, so I can speak from personal experience, but it feels like if someone is asking a question or need your help, it's like an emergency.
oh my God, they can't move forward without me responding to this. They are now stuck because of me. I need to answer as quick as possible so then they can move forward. And I think, the flip of that is putting in really clear [00:39:00] boundaries. these are, making sure everyone's really aware of them and saying "These are the times I'm gonna respond.
These are the calls we're gonna have. this is when you're gonna get a response from me," so that everyone can plan, and they know then as well as you. But I do think as well, I saw this, I can't think of exactly what the post was, but it was basically , I think it was an ad, and, it was a coach, and it was like, "I make 50K months and I never have to speak to my clients on Zoom"
and it was just basically the flex was that she never had to speak to her clients and loads of it is pre-recorded and loads of it is like her team does and, she just goes on Voxer two days a month or something. And it was like it was super high ticket. And I was just like, " God, that isn't what I'm aiming for at all."
there's boundaries, but there's also when I'm there, I'm all in, I enjoy it, I want to be there frequently. B- yeah, I just think that's a really interesting, for me, a real red flag. when I'm working with someone, especially high ticket or in close proximity, I want to know what is my access to you?
Not your support coaches, to you
Ruthie: I was just gonna say, that is definitely a red flag for me, [00:40:00] is where you have got one person talking about something, but then when you get inside , it feels like you're farmed off elsewhere.
Sophie: I know that's probably not the case. I'm sure that whenever, support coaches and other people are, employed, they're, like, really well qualified to do it, and sometimes more qualified than the person. But when it's done in a way that it's not clear, where there's not clarity,
Ruthie: I think that's a bit of a red flag for me. I just like to know like, when, y- years back if my friend started dating somebody new, I could do ... I would do deep recon on them without ever having met. I'm like, "Let me go on your socials.
Let me find out your inside leg measurement. Let me..." I love the process of researching something. And I do that the same with courses. When I'm working with somebody, when I'm looking to purchase, I will do the research of, like, okay, what can I find out about this person? so I just think anything that feels misleading, and I think sometimes that does when you get inside and someone's , has promised the world, and then doesn't seem to want anything to do with the program that they've created and sold.
that's, harsh
Sophie: Yeah. I [00:41:00] remember a client once telling me, she was like, "Oh my God, this is just such an amazing space because I previously had worked with a, high ticket mastermind with a big name coach. And she said, , there was one call a month where you could go on and ask your question.
And every time, and you only had 10 minutes, right? 'Cause there's loads of people. Every time she went on she had to explain what her business was.
And I think when you're paying high ticket mastermind prices, for me, I know my clients' businesses inside out, I often know like their personal lives,where it's relevant.
Obviously in terms of like, you know, the summer holidays or we've got a lot going on at home at the moment, like I've got another business which I'm working on so I'm not as engaged or whatever it is. But, to have to remind your coach, and this went on, she said even it was six months, like even in the sixth month I'm still like, "Oh, , hi, I'm this person, I have this business, and these are my challenges, and last time this is what we talked about."
oh my God. I think sometimes we can all doubt ourselves, can't we? And then you hear stories like that and you're like, oh, okay. I feel like my offer actually is really great." Yeah.
Ruthie: that's the thing, isn't it? it's fine if that, if you're paying 15 pound a month
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: fine. But if you're [00:42:00] paying,
Sophie: thousands
Ruthie: grand or 12,000 or more even, and that's the case. Yeah, I think deliverability is super important. I also have a red flag,
Sophie: Go on
Ruthie: So slightly controversial as somebody who works in content. but it is the storytelling specifically on LinkedIn.
Sophie: Oh my God, I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, go on
Ruthie: , It makes my teeth itch. It makes me feel so ragey. And obviously, I am the biggest advocate of storytelling.
I love storytelling, and I love it when people are using their experiences and the things that have happened to them to help people come along with them on a journey. Amazing. But I just think LinkedIn has, taken it to this level. And don't get me wrong, I follow some amazing people on LinkedIn. I'm rubbish at being consistent on LinkedIn, partly because I have this adverse reaction when I go on there. But I saw this really funny meme on the internet of someone, mocking it, where it was like this guy like, "I've just walked out of my [00:43:00] father's funeral, and here's what it's told me about business coaching." And I just think there's such an element of truth to that, in that where people are taking literally whatever they've done and,
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: shoehorning it into being a story that- then is about something really specific in their business. And yes, of course, at the moment, let's say the World Cup's been on. There are loads of examples of teams and leadership, and actually there's some really interesting things to pull out from that, and using current affairs and using things that are going on in your life. but I just wish people could take a little bit more time because so many of them seem like it's this is what's happened, pop it into Claude or ChatGPT and say, "How can I make this about X, Y, Z?" And I don't know, there's just something about it on LinkedIn where it's all often text
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: me ... it's just a real red flag for me. And so often when ... I've had clients inquire about LinkedIn before, and I have done LinkedIn work for people before, but I wonder whether
I'm like, I don't think I'm the best person for this because I have got this adverse reaction [00:44:00] to some of the ways that stories are told on LinkedIn. It just gives me the, the major ick
Sophie: I think for me it feels , a little bit like LinkedIn is always a little bit behind Instagram and maybe TikTok. I don't know because I don't actually have TikTok. But I would say it's almost like LinkedIn is, that's how people used to tell stories, right?, I think that's what a lot of people were taught, to tell, to, storytelling content is basically think about what you wanna say and then think about a story that you can, pop a line in at the top and be like, "I was at my dad's funeral, and what it made me really realize was..."
And then basically you can say what you wanna say because that's, storytelling.
Ruthie: Yeah
Sophie: had a story at the beginning and you didn't just launch with your thing. I think then on Instagram and TikTok, it's just massively evolved into "Oh, we're actually telling stories here." And often you don't actually really need to hammer home your point in the way that you think you do.
A little bit like what I was saying earlier, we can sort of treat people like adults. they might be able to infer [00:45:00] or understand what you're saying without spelling it out.
Ruthie: Yeah, that I might be able to keep up, and that sometimes the story ... doesn't necessarily have to have a purpose.
I think on LinkedIn, it's often formulaic. It's like, "Here's the story, here's the bridge to my offer,
Sophie: Yeah.
Ruthie: Here's the call to action,"
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: what I want you to do with it."
Whereas I think, , on other platforms, and the type of storytelling I like, is that sometimes you're telling the story just for relatability.
Sophie: you're just telling the story because it's something that's happened to you. Sometimes you're not even telling a story, you're just telling something from your perspective.
Ruthie: These are the things I've learned. These are the things I know.
Sophie: and it's just coming from that first person narration. I think it is probably the, amount of, this formula that seems to be followed where everything has to have a purpose, and has to have an outcome that
Yeah
Ruthie: and deliverable.
Whereas I think the best storytelling is what you infer and deduce. It's what you read between the lines. I'm gonna listen to that story about Sophie, and I'm gonna know that she is, a mum balancing [00:46:00] a lot of plates, and that, regulating nervous systems plays a massive part in her day-to-day life.
I'm just gathering that information, and I might not do anything with it this time, but the next time she talks about an offer, I might use that as part of the information that I have about her in a broader sense. And so, yeah, I, storytelling on LinkedIn is a bit of a red flag for me, and if somebody wants that from me, I'm probably the wrong person, 'cause I think it's still quite suited up in LinkedIn, and I think that, is one of the things that you see, isn't it? It's a slightly more corporate whereas things are a lot looser on Instagram and
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: still on some of the other platforms available.
Sophie: I know. And I do think that is probably, in my experience with people who , are LinkedIn first generally, and they try and come onto Instagram, it's quite confronting because it's like, "Well, you wanna know all of this personal stuff about me. like can't I just put a line at the top?
Ruthie: Yeah
Sophie: I just wanna talk about my offer? I don't wanna share personal things about myself on Instagram." I think it is a very different vibe from LinkedIn to come over to Instagram, and I do think it takes [00:47:00] some real adjustment to be like, "Yeah, we wanna hear, your genuine stories.
You don't have to tell us your, deepest secrets.
Ruthie: No
what's happening to you on a day-to-day basis." that's fine. real life. It's just, you know, I'm not telling anything I never tell the story that I'm uncomfortable to tell. and sometimes you can think to yourself, "God, that would be a good bit of content." But it's whether or not it's right. But I think, I definitely do see that with people who've come from a LinkedIn first space and then are trying to make it work on Instagram and can't , quite get the temperature because it feels too personal for them.
But
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: of what storytelling is on Instagram is quite superficial.
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: it's not necessarily that we're all going super deep and super personal and super vulnerable, but we are just sharing in a bit more of a transparent kind of day-to-day reality sort of, way. So yeah, does definitely sets my teeth on edge.
You know that funny feeling
Sophie: Yeah.
Ruthie: something?
Sophie: Oh, no.
Oh, go on.
What's your own red flag?
Ruthie: I'm a red flag to myself in that often when I'm purchasing things online, I know I'm not gonna do it.
Sophie: Oh.
Ruthie: [00:48:00] the red flags that I completely continue to ignore, when I'm navigating all of the selling that happens online,
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: and actually it's very specific. There are certain things that I will do and will use and have had great value of.
but for me personally, and I know this is so different and it's such a personal thing, but, a self-taught kind of module-based course,
I'm not doing it.
Sophie: Nej
Ruthie: I'm not doing it. I can't. I don't know what it is, guys, but I just haven't got it in me, and it's not because I don't want to. I always have, the best intentions, and I'm like, "Maybe this is the one that I'll actually do. As I'm purchasing, I'm having this conversation, it's "Maybe this is it. This is the one that's gonna transform me and transform my business," but it just doesn't. And so a red flag for me as a purchaser that I just don't listen to is the fact that I know if I've gotta be self-motivated to do learning or a course, I'm
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: not going to do it.
If it's got accountability where I have to show up for a call, that's better. If it's high touch and it's [00:49:00] probably me just with one person, then.. i'm like A-star student. I'm there with bells and whistles
Sophie: Yeah. I'm, I have definitely had a, a lot of painful learning experiences, the same thing. when you just said then, "I've convinced myself this time it'll be different," that is me. I'm like, "Maybe this time. Maybe I will do it." I have definitely got better at knowing myself, and definitely been like, "Actually, no, I'm not gonna do that self-paced course.
I just know I'm not, so I'm just gonna wait until I can either," like you say, "work with someone one-to-one or, , do it live, have more accountability." And also, it's quite a hard thing to say to people, but I will sometimes get people saying I'm not gonna do, say, the Superfan Sprint because I bought your ABC course and I haven't done it yet. So I feel like I should do that first before I invest further." And it's very hard, on an Instagram DM to diagnose people. But really what I want to say is, the likelihood is, if you've had my course for three or four months and you haven't done it, that isn't a reflection on you, it isn't a reflection on the course.
It's just the complete DIY self-paced thing is not for you right now. You don't have capacity., It's not urgent enough. There's no deadline. [00:50:00] No one's checking in with you. Whatever it is, it's not that ads are not for you because you haven't done this DIY course. It's just that for whatever reason, DIY course is not helping you, and therefore, the Superfan Sprint would probably be a better option because it loads the accountability and you get my feedback, et cetera.
But it's quite hard, I think, for people to make an investment, and like, I definitely count myself in this bucket as well. make an investment and then make another investment knowing that technically they do have the knowledge sitting in a course, but they also know that they're not gonna do it.
So to make that extra investment, it feels really hard, doesn't it?
Ruthie: I wonder if that would be, this is a side note, but it would be a good qualifying question, wouldn't it,
Sophie: When I was in education, you were constantly just trying to get to the bottom of, like, what type of learner are the people that I'm teaching.
Yeah
Ruthie: as you can understand, okay, look, they work really well like this, they work really well like that, then you can start to make... They're achieving more, they're making better progress. And, obviously what everyone wants is when somebody comes into one of your courses or containers or memberships, you want them to have, this [00:51:00] amazing experience and make progress, and that you get this shit hot testimonial at the end of it that you can
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: And so I do wonder, actually, I've just thought of this, but as part of that, getting to know somebody or asking them questions before they sign up is understanding, have they bought courses like this before? What's worked well for them in the past? especially if you were, like, trying to decide...
what avenue
Sophie: Yeah. Yeah
Ruthie: that would be a cool thing, I think, to try and work out. 'Cause, as you say, sometimes you get people into your space and you think, "Oh, this isn't, for whatever reason, this isn't working." And sometimes I do think it's just about the way people learn.
Sophie: Yeah.
Ruthie: learn by talking.
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: know that some of my best ideas come out of my mouth when I'm talking to somebody. Self-study doesn't bring out that same level of creativity in me. that having conversations and being in group spaces and hearing what other people are doing, that's where I get my most inspiration from. but it has, like you said, taken me a while to get to that point where I'm like, " why am I buying these courses that don't give me the thing that I need? I know that I need high touch. I know that I need group or I need one-to-one."
Sophie: Yeah. [00:52:00] And I think, just to round us up, it does make me think actually, in my high-touch spaces, some of them have one-to-one, some there's group elements in terms of group calls, there's feedback they can submit every week. And, there's also then a community space as well.
And sometimes when I get feedback at the end, I always ask people which elements of it they found the most useful. And when I originally set that question up, I thought it was gonna help me refine the offer. You know? So if everyone thinks this is really important, maybe we don't need this bit that's not as important.
And then really actually what it showed me was that everybody likes different things. So one person will be like, "I'm obsessed with the group calls, I literally couldn't have done it without them." they never submit anything for weekly Slack, never got any feedback, but they were on the calls every single week without fail.
Other people will be like, "Yeah, I didn't love the calls." You know, found the calls hard to get to or found the calls tricky, they will be there every single week submitting something in Slack, and they love the one-to-one, for example.
I think when you're designing an offer, really understanding that you will have different types of [00:53:00] learners, and just because one person doesn't like an element that you've got or doesn't use an element that you've got, it's quite easy to get into your own head and be like, "Maybe I just shouldn't offer this anymore if the group calls aren't as useful as I want them to be."
And then someone else tells you that they couldn't have lived without the group calls, and you're like,
Ruthie: Yeah
Sophie: okay. This is just having different ways for people to access it." But I also think it's really important to set that expectation with people at the beginning. to get the most out of this course, you don't have to attend every group call, put something in Slack every single week for both me, Ruthie, and Christina.
you don't have to use everything every single week to get, A, incredible results and, B, your money's worth, 'cause I think that's what a lot of the time it comes up for people.
Ruthie: And again, it is that grown-up element, isn't it? treating people like a
Sophie: Yeah
Ruthie: I've seen actually with some of my clients previously that they've, , from a really good place taken something out of a space, and then got immediate feedback of like, "No, we loved that."
"Bring it back." And, you
Sophie: reintroduced it. But actually, if I even think about my own buying experience, sometimes I've [00:54:00] stayed in spots, memberships or containers or whatever, just because a couple of particular things that I
Yeah
Ruthie: like about it, and I don't touch the rest because it's not for me. Where I've been dissatisfied is when there's only really one thing available, and that one thing isn't right for me,for, whatever reason. So yeah, I haven't thought of it like that before, but I think having the different ways for people to engage with the same thing is sometimes, a good idea in an offer maybe
Sophie: Yeah. But I do think, depends on the price point, 'cause Outrageous is really high ticket, so I can offer those different things. With lower ticket offers, I think it's much harder to suddenly be offering loads of different ways to access it when actually, you're like, "No, this actually needs to be really simple.
I can't be offering it in so many different ways." So
Ruthie: Yeah, and to be honest, that's like a red flag in itself, isn't it? I know
Sophie: Yes
Ruthie: it up, but the, champagne client on a lemonade budget is sometimes one of the trickiest clients to work with. People who don't wanna pay very much but have really high expectations and are expecting a lot.
If you give too much, that can become the expectation and [00:55:00] can up being a tricky spot to be in
Sophie: Yeah, absolutely. Well, that was a lovely chat. I enjoyed that a lot. I...
Ruthie: I've made some notes as well, notes to self, things
Sophie: Yeah,
Ruthie: and do
Sophie: me too. we can report back next week on how we're getting on.
I hope you enjoyed the episode, and we will see you next week.
Ruthie: Everyone
Subscribe to ‘should I care?’
Episodes release every Tuesday. Make sure you don’t miss any by subscribing on your favourite app.
Next
Next